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Derby News Network Power Rankings - Post Regionals 2010

DNN WFTDA W/L Next Notes
2 W 2010 11-1
2009 8-7
10/23 vs Steel City Rocky's extremely impressive takedown of previously unbeaten Oly showed they have both the physical talent and game strategy to defeat anybody. The recent additions of Urrk'n Jerkin As Booty Blockya and Amanda Jamitinya have helped transform this team from an extremely dangerous contender to an odds-on pick to be this year's WFTDA champions.
2 Gotham
 
1 E 2010 10-0
2009 7-2
11/6 @ [TBA] Gotham is now this year's only undefeated team in the Power Rankings and might still own the top spot here if not for a massive late-game collapse in the finals of the East Region playoffs, where Philly managed to make up 60 points in the last 5 jams of the game. That showed that Gotham domination is not automatic, but any team that can get 90 points away from Philly in the first place is a danger to anybody.
3 Oly
 
1 W 2010 11-1
2009 12-0
10/17 vs Windy City Oly drops a slot as Rocky Mountain hits the top, but will get the opportunity to re-tune when they play Windy City this weekend. Jammer penalties and small but critical strategic errors cost them against Rocky Mountain -- if they can fix those before the Championships, they could easily find themselves in the top slot once again come November.
4 Philly
 
2 E 2010 13-4
2009 9-2
11/5 @ Madison Philly holds steady in the 4 slot, although there appears to be a little bit of a gap between them and the top three. As mentioned above, their 30 point loss to Gotham is a little misleading given the wild ride in the last 10 minutes of their most recent game.
5 Bay Area
 
6 W 2010 12-6
2009 5-5
11/5 @ Texas Easily the most improved team of the year, Bay Area has shot up 16 spaces from a low of #21 this year, with the last few spaces coming on the backs of two thrilling upsets at the West Region playoffs over Denver and Rose City.
6 Rose City
 
4 W 2010 8-6
2009 5-3
10/15 vs Slaughter County Rose City bumps up a slot from 7 to 6 by beating previous 6 Rat City at West Region playoffs, but it's cold comfort for them as Bay Area stopped them one game short of the championship tournament for the second time in three years.
7 Rat City
 
5 W 2010 9-6
2009 5-7
TBD They finally got the Denver monkey off their backs by squeaking by them in a 135-127 barnburner at West Region playoffs, but Rat City is passed by both Rose City and Bay Area and falls a slot since last Power Ranking.
8 Denver
 
3 W 2010 9-3
2009 12-3
TBD Denver tumbles three slots as a result of a disappointing swing at the West Region playoffs, where they lost to lower-seeded Rat City and Bay Area.
9 Charm City
 
4 E 2010 8-7
2009 13-5
10/23 vs Carolina No movement since last ranking; their defeat of Boston in the third place bout of the East Region playoffs was a WFTDA-seeding upset but not a Power Rankings upset, keeping them in their previous position.
10 Windy City
 
1 NC 2010 7-3
2009 10-2
10/16 @ Rose City Windy City takes over Texas's #10 spot by beating them 88-62 in one of the very few inter-regional WFTDA bouts of the last six weeks.
11 Kansas City
 
3 SC 2010 8-4
2009 9-4
11/6 @ [TBA] It's a huge 7-slot jump for previous #18 Kansas City, who clearly upped their game since the summer months and stunned Texas in the final of the South Central playoffs.
12 Texas
 
1 SC 2010 6-7
2009 11-2
11/5 @ Bay Area Texas drops to their lowest ranking as they continue to work through their most challenging year to date; they still have yet to defeat a non-South Central team this year.
13 Boston
 
3 E 2010 5-9
2009 10-9
TBD Boston drops a slot on the rise of Kansas City and will be missing the Championships this year after losing to Charm City in the third-place bout of the East Region playoffs.
14 Minnesota
 
7 NC 2010 9-2
2009 7-3
11/5 @ Charm City Minnesota leapfrogs over half the list, going from unranked to #14 on the strength of two stunning upsets of Detroit and Madison at the North Central Region playoffs.
15 Madison
 
3 NC 2010 3-8
2009 7-4
11/5 @ Philly Although Madison took third place at North Central regionals while previously higher-ranked Detroit failed to make it out of the first round, Madison still drops a slot on the rise of Minnesota and Kansas City.
16 Cincinnati
 
4 NC 2010 10-5
2009 10-5
4/30 vs Naptown Cincinnati came achingly close -- twice -- to qualifying for Championships, but had to settle for 4th place in the North Central for the second year in a row. They do pop up three slots in the Power Rankings with impressive performances against Windy City and Madison during the NC tournament.
17 Detroit
 
2 NC 2010 11-3
2009 8-6
TBD The Motor City girls were Minnesota's first victim at the NC playoffs, and had their Championships hopes dashed in the first round. They drop 4 slots from 13 to 17.
18 Nashville
 
5 SC 2010 11-4
2009 8-5
11/5 @ Oly They might have had a weak mid-season, but Nashville's surprisingly efficient defense at the recent South Central playoffs earned them upset victories over Dallas and Atlanta -- and, more importantly, a third-place finish that sends them to the WFTDA Championships.
19 Steel City
 
5 E 2010 12-4
2009 11-3
10/23 @ Rocky Mountain Steel City played more or less to expectations at the East Region playoffs, but the rise of Nashville, Kansas City and Minnesota pushes them down three slots.
20 San Diego
 
- 2010 12-2
2009 8-3
3/27 vs Rocky Mountain San Diego took a big 159-73 loss to Charm City in early September and falls just a notch below Steel City based on Steel's slightly better performance at East Regionals against Charm (181-107).
21 London
 
- 2010 3-2
2009 5-0
TBD London continues to be a little bit of a mystery; although they drop 4 slots here from 17 to 21, that's based more on the re-appearance or upward movement of Kansas City, Minnesota, Nashville and Cincinnati.
22 Atlanta
 
2 SC 2010 12-5
2009 8-8
TBD The Dirty South Derby Girls reached the third-place bout of their tournament and looked like they had a good chance at the Championships, but were soundly defeated by a very focused Nashville team; Atlanta drops two slots.
23 Carolina
 
7 E 2010 7-9
2009 5-8
10/23 @ Charm City Carolina finally returns to the top 25 after a long absence by beating Montreal in a 2-point squeaker in the consolation rounds of the East Region playoffs.
24 Montreal
 
6 E 2010 13-5
2009 5-6
TBD Montreal can really lay some huge point totals on unsuspecting opponents, but their run at the East Region playoffs showed they're still at least a year of development away from a Championships berth.
25 Naptown
 
9 NC 2010 11-5
2009 7-5
10/23 vs Maine Naptown makes their first appearance on the chart in a very hotly contested spot, mostly due to a 5th place finish at the NC playoffs that included a respectable loss to Detroit.
Key:
E WFTDA East region
W WFTDA West region
NC WFTDA North Central region
SC WFTDA South Central region

Comments

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Stoked

WOOO HOOO TOP 5

my bracket is better than your bracket

THAT'S IT! I am picking all of my Derby Deeds WFTDA Championship Bracket Contest slots based on the DNN Power Rankings' Top Twelve

... oh wait, nevermind, I can't

6/7/8

Ouch. It's definitely rough that #6-8 are all staying home in November. Time to increase the number of regions??? Curious to see how things change over the next few years.

Oh, and you left out part of the name of that contest. ;-P (jk)

Washington, Oregon and

Washington, Oregon and California alone would make a pretty strong region.

Colorado

Indeed. So would Colorado.

:-)

Dave Wood and Derby Deeds

BAYYYYYYYYYYAREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

Holy carp. So proud of the Black & Gold! What a huge success for our ladies who, just 8 months ago, were dangerously close to falling off the Power Rankings entirely. Congratulations on going to Chicago, girls, I will be with you every step of the way!!!

And for those of you interested in helping out this year's Cinderella story...
http://www.travelersjoy.com/bayareaderbygirls

xoxo
-Moxxxie

IT'S AN OUTRAGE

THAT I CAN'T SCREAM FROM THE ROOFTOPS FROM MY CUBICLE RIGHT THIS MINUTE: "WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Hello DNN

I agree. That is all.

Someone should make a graph

Showing the movement of each league since Power Rankings have existed.

Outfit! Outfit! Outfit!

I think this is the 3rd or 4th time we've been on the bubble? Maybe even more?
Either way, there's a rematch with Naptown on December 4th! =)

Bay jumps to #5 overall???

*cough*yeahright*cough*

outrage, etc. blah blah blah.

Genuine question for you

Who do you think should be above them, seeing as how they beat Denver and Rose City head to head two weeks ago?

AND

and Seattle ...

genuine question seconded

Seriously.

chrome "totally saw Bay Area beat Rat/Rose/Denver with her own two eyes" molly

Its just crazy.....

Justice Feelgood Marshall wrote:

Who do you think should be above them, seeing as how they beat Denver and Rose City head to head two weeks ago?

That the West has #1-6 over #1NC and #1SC and the SC Champs. I think there needs to a change. :(

And you can include #1-3 of the East as well.

Congrats to Fight Club! See you in Chicago ;-)

That's life

How many times have the best three or four teams in the American League been in the East? The wild card helps but still often leaves one or two teams left out. If you have geographic divisions someone is going to get screwed.

+1

I don't think it's a bad thing either. I mean, I want to see every bout be extremely competitive, but I don't feel like there's some sort of problem that needs to be sorted out just because some regions' top teams are doing better than other regions'.

Granted, not all regions are growing in number at the same rate. When the four regions were announced, they each had almost the same numbers (I believe the biggest difference was 2 more in the most populous region than the least populous region). Now, South Central has 4 fewer than East, and 7 fewer than the other two regions. That's a difference of 20-35% more in the other regions. I haven't tried to work it out, but I feel like the apprentice leagues are likely to make this disparity even greater.

I think things are at the

I think things are at the point where i'd give serious consideration to reassigning Denver and Rocky Mountain to the South Central, or possibly even the North Central region ((maybe even splitting them between the two, for added weirdness)). I think the Colorado teams are in a nebulous enough geographic position where any region but the East could be claimed to be a semi-logical choice for them.

I'm curious, in general, as to how frequently the regional divisions are reviewed. I didn't realize until i drove down to South Centrals last weekend that Omaha ((in the NC)) is only about 45 minutes from fellow Nebraskans No Coast ((in the SC)), which struck me as a counterintuitive way to draw up a regional border ((although i imagine there was, at one point, some logical basis for dividing up Nebraska that way of which i am not aware)). I know every dummy with a map of the US and a ball-point pen has, at one point in time or another, drawn up a "better" way to divide one sports league or another, but i'm curious as to who does this for real for derby, when do they do it, and how often does it happen?

Every 10 years, WFTDA takes a

Every 10 years, WFTDA takes a census and then the member leagues vote to re-draw the lines, supposedly according to population. But they make them into weird contortions in an attempt to keep themselves strong and include plenty of weak teams in their region. It's colloquially known as "derbymandering".

figures

gnosis wrote:

Every 10 years, WFTDA takes a census and then the member leagues vote to re-draw the lines, supposedly according to population. But they make them into weird contortions in an attempt to keep themselves strong and include plenty of weak teams in their region. It's colloquially known as "derbymandering".

And people say there is nothing political about derby.

you're kidding, right? WTFDA

you're kidding, right? WTFDA hasn't even been around 10 years, has it?

Yes, he is kidding

It's a joke based around gerrymandering, which, to be fair, does not come up that often in derby conversation.

LOL @ derbymandering

as someone who was a nerdy history major/political science minor, that made me giggle quite heartily.

Seconded

And as someone who works in Political Affairs and has spent a lot of time reading about the census and the midterm election's ramifications on redistricting, I was also quite amused.

As far as the Omaha/No Coast wackiness (which confused the crud outta me when I first heard about it too), I was told that it was an attempt to keep the number of leagues even in each region when they were initially divided from 2 to 4.

Just a solution....

revnorb wrote:

I think things are at the point where i'd give serious consideration to reassigning Denver and Rocky Mountain to the South Central, or possibly even the North Central region ((maybe even splitting them between the two, for added weirdness)). I think the Colorado teams are in a nebulous enough geographic position where any region but the East could be claimed to be a semi-logical choice for them.
............. I know every dummy with a map of the US and a ball-point pen has, at one point in time or another, drawn up a "better" way to divide one sports league or another, but i'm curious as to who does this for real for derby, when do they do it, and how often does it happen?

As a dummy derd who gets called a derk every once in a while, I would say it would be easy to split up the East and West in two big conferences as before and then reassign those into 3 divs for a total of 6 divisions.

So the East could have a

North
Central
South

And the West

North
Central
South

So how does this work for tournaments you say.

Well currently 40 teams play for 12 spots for Championships right.

Well how about you have those same teams play for double the spots at championships with an upper and lower division?

with rankings or smaller tourneys you can take the top2 in each division in the East&West with one wildcard coming from the #3 slot from one of the three divisions to make 7 to play at Championships for the East and also for the West(Upper Division-or Pink for the sake of arguement). Wildcard selected by members possibly. For a total 14 teams at Championships for the Pink Bracket.

THEN>>

The Next2 from each of the divisions with again another wildcard to make 7 would play in the East&West (Lower Division- or Black lets say) 14 teams at Championships.

This could see possible match ups like Jet City taking on Steel City, Or Dallas taking on Cincinatti, OR Tampa taking on North Star in a Championships enviroment.

What an experience that would be. Forget about the whole 3 games to play at regionals and take that to smaller division level where for example the Northwest could do this for seeding in thier own local arena and make better money and publicity for the sport of roller derby in their own community.

For Example the Northwest could be playing in the Key Arena or Expo Center for a Regional atmosphere tournament with these teams playing.

Oly Rollers
Rat City
Rose City
Jet City
Bellingham Roller Betties
Lava City
Emerald City
Salt City
Slaughter County
Wasatch Roller Derby

and with apprentice leagues like this up an coming who know who gets invited to the Northwest Regionals.

Treasure Valley
Dockyard
Lilac
Terminal City Rollergirls
Cherry City Derby Girls
Rage City Rollergirls

More teams involved overall, not one BUT two showcase tournaments. but who am I.......but a derd, ;-)

Here Lies Insanity

Someone has already worked out this problem for derby: the NCAA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_conferences

Hello Devil, welcome to hell.

The Derby BCS?

So who's going to be in the WFTDA version of the MEAC?

;)

or MLS?

I've always been partial to emulating the MLS Playoff style:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Cup_Playoffs

Splitting a city is the outrage.

revnorb wrote:

I think things are at the point where i'd give serious consideration to reassigning Denver and Rocky Mountain to the South Central, or possibly even the North Central region ((maybe even splitting them between the two, for added weirdness)). I think the Colorado teams are in a nebulous enough geographic position where any region but the East could be claimed to be a semi-logical choice for them.

The closest that came to happening was 2008, when Minnesota (Saint Paul) was in East and North Star (Minneapolis, right across the river) was in West.

I don't want to change regions every time there happens to be multiple high-quality teams from one geographical location. Especially because derby leagues are ever-changing. The current regions are fine (although I would prefer to drop the "Central" tag from two of 'em), the boundaries just need to be slightly redrawn from time to time to keep the numbers of full WFTDA leagues relatively equal.

alright alright

To be entirely open, yes, I'm biased towards Rose City.

Who do I think should be ranked above them?

If I ask myself who can beat BAD right now, the answer looks to be only the top 4 teams above them. Your power rankings are probably correct. I just have a hard time processing that BAD is really the 5th best in the nation.

After some hard thinking, I have no good answer. Yes, they are the most improved league this year. Yes, they had some key players return. Yes, they had an excellent showing in the west this year at hometown throwdown & at westerns.

BUT, the Denver team they beat in Sacramento hardly looked like the Denver monster that scared the crap out of everyone last year. I also wonder if the outcome of the BAD-Rose game at besterns would have been different if Rose hadn't played Oly so hard the night before. BAD lost to the #2 seed by 98 points, Rose lost to the #1 seed by 39 points.

I realize that bay area definitely put in work and had Rose City's number twice in a row this year, but I still feel like Rose is the better team.

Regardless, no hard feelings to any BAD girls, west coast is the best coast!

xoxo

any given day

I feel like BAD/ROSE/RAT are all in the same boat. We just came out better when it counted. Mad respect for all 3, any of those teams should have gone.

We lost to rose at the Throwdown, but had a solid lead on Rose the whole time.

We also (I think) had the best game against the queens of the Throwdown, Gotham and had the narrowest point margin in the first half.

I can't say what happened with Denver. I think some of the rules with the backwards game may have them off, but I'm sure not for long.

So in conclusion, nahnernahnernanher we're going to Championships! We had a LOT of newer/less played skaters that seriously worked their asses of this year. Sometimes it takes a season to get there.

totes any given day

Any given day, that's what makes me love this game and this region.

congrats to BAD, now go kick some Championship ass! I'll be booing the other teams for you.

xoxo

BAD key players return?

BAD has been the same team all year. We actually LOST key players this season due to pregnancy. Rose and BAD are pretty evenly matched and it was an amazing bout. :)

my bad

I was under the impression that Burlybot had been injured earlier in the year. What do I know? Nothing, apparently :)

WOJ v BAD was an incredible bout! I am so in awe of the skills, talent, deep benches and heart of these two teams!

Burly

She was never injured, just busy. She's a socialite who can't say "no" to an event invitation.

BAD played the Wild West Showdown in feb. with out Burly Bot, Jane Hammer, Lusty Malice and for one game Velveteen Savage. So we were down some key players in that first one so it wasn't a true reflection of our team at the time. Burly then missed some other key games. But all that did was allow for our greener jammers to get more experience.
As a Bay Area insider, i believe our improvement and success over this season, was not due to the return of Burly (even though she is truly amazing), but in the growth all the other players were forced to make in her absence. Every player made huge improvements over the season. We had to play Rose and now Nationals without Liza Machete, and all though she will be missed on the track, it doesn't matter too much, because we roll deep.

Can you imagine how unbeatable gotham would be if bonnie and suzy took some time off?

Re: Burly

Burly Bot as a socialite? Hilarious.

Dude, seriously.

Josh Bomb wrote:

If I ask myself who can beat BAD right now, the answer looks to be only the top 4 teams above them. Your power rankings are probably correct. I just have a hard time processing that BAD is really the 5th best in the nation.

I went through exactly the same process when I was making my picks, prior to reconciling the final rankings with Justice and Gnosis. I really spent a hard moment thinking, am I really picking BADG to be the 5th best team in the world, the highest they've *ever* rated, less than a year after they'd fallen to the lowest they'd ever been? I suspect the other two guys had the same moment of pause.

But, yes, the results speak with a clear voice. Bay Area's accomplishment in the last few months has been phenomenal... and may not yet have peaked. In my experience, sharp upward trends like this don't have a predictable ceiling -- if I were Texas, or even Gotham, I would be spending a great deal of quality time with the DVDs from Westerns, and I would expect even more and better from the actual matchups in Chicago!

5th

"I went through exactly the same process when I was making my picks, prior to reconciling the final rankings with Justice and Gnosis. I really spent a hard moment thinking, am I really picking BADG to be the 5th best team in the world, the highest they've *ever* rated, less than a year after they'd fallen to the lowest they'd ever been? I suspect the other two guys had the same moment of pause." (pretend this is one of those quotey box things)

I think we were 5th when the power rankings first came out. I think?

Flu-hazed research

Found March 2009, apparently the second release of power rankings:

http://www.derbynewsnetwork.com/power_rankings/2009/10_0

Bay Area was ranked 5th, but it's implied they were #12 in February.

Broken database

For reasons that are far beyond my nearly-nonexistent database management comprehension, the plus/minus section in some of the oldest Power Rankings bears no relation to reality. BAD was in fact #5 in the very first Power Rankings of February 2009 after their very close loss to Philly at the 2008 Nationals.

math is hard

Josh Bomb wrote:

I also wonder if the outcome of the BAD-Rose game at besterns would have been different if Rose hadn't played Oly so hard the night before. BAD lost to the #2 seed by 98 points, Rose lost to the #1 seed by 39 points.

Seeding is irrlevevant, as we observed when the #2 seed defeated the #1 seed.
RMRG beat Oly by 40ish. Bad lost to RMRG by 90ish, Rose lost to Oly by 40ish. So the math is still ocnsistent, in this inconsistent way to rank (triangulation, i mean).
That's sweet that you love your team, but your argument makes no sense.

I was just...

You are correct. Seeding is irrelevant & I generally hate triangulation anyway. I was just trying to write out the process in my brain for justifying a higher-ranked Rose squad.

My math skills aren't that great, I usually only have to count to 5.

Give it three days

Go Windy City!!

Windy City

see you this weekend, Windy!

wish I could make it to Rose City but we have a bout at the same time. I'll see you in Oly on the 17th.

If you end up in the penalty box, say hello to me.

Three days - check!

Rose City is almost exactly as awesome as the power rankings might have predicted. Which is to say: way awesome.

tx <3's madison

"they still have yet to defeat a non-South Central team this year."
slight addendum- though non-sanctioned scrimmages are not factored in these rankings (& I don't think it would effect standing anyway) tx did defeat madison by about 50 points 2wks ago, the morning after our windy bout. and they were the most fabulous hosts. and we love them.

re: Outfit! Outfit! Outfit!

we're coming for ya, naptown. :)

*wrings hands in anticipation*

Not at all a complaint.

Would you mind adding the first bout that the the twelve going to the Championships will be involved in to the 'Next Bout' field? It'd be nice to have a quick reminder when looking at this grid.

2nd that

.

3rd that!

MNRG is also hosting two more bouts before the 4/2 vs. Naptown, but yeah, the Championships should be the next games for all 12.

eh?

maybe i got your statement wrong but actually RMRG will be playing Steel City on Oct. 23

My bad.

Garrison-Killer-MN wrote:

Would you mind adding the first bout that the the twelve going to the Championships will be involved in to the 'Next Bout' field? It'd be nice to have a quick reminder when looking at this grid.

When all the hits seemed to crash WFTDA's server yesterday, I didn't get back on there to get the brackets right away (I was finishing a big project). So they weren't in Derbymatic when they created this particular Power Rankings page. The bouts you see listed above are whatever Derbymatic finds for each team in the next month or so when the rankings were entered. Those bouts are entered now, but it won't auto-update.

They don't auto-update, but

They don't auto-update, but we do have the ability to trigger a re-generate manually. Which I did just now. So all known bouts should be reflected.

Thanks to Gnosis and a question about Denver.

...thank you for getting in there and doing the annoying drek work.

Now that the dates are in there...it does seem a little odd to see so many that didn't make the tournament in the top ten. I think I understand the reasoning, but I probably would quibble with some of the

Here's a question that some of you that live in the West Coast and have the ability to see a lot more of Colorado derby might answer. At our viewing party here in the Midwest for western regionals, we watched the Denver/BAD game with a lot of interest.

We wondered whether the Denver loss against BAD had something to do with the Colorado team not adapting their play from last year (where few teams had yet come across the now-infamous Denver defense) to an environment where everyone and their sister had adapted that sort of pack to their own play.

What is your take on that?

Regards,
-Garrison

Straight from the Horse's Mouth

While I'm not who you were addressing, I am the coach of Denver; so, I have some perspective on this and I'm going to share it (because I can).

I don't believe we remained stagnant or full of ourselves due to our success last year. I also don't believe BAD outdid us playing our rather signature style either. While it was obvious to anyone that they had improved and I know they had to spend a lot of time preparing for us, I think their win was a combination of BAD playing exceptionally well while we didn't execute as we normally have all season. That is why you play the games instead of determining winners on paper.

I personally have broken down this loss to the smallest detail, but one, I'm not going to ramble on and two, I'm not going to share anything that teams will be able to use against us either. ;) Suffice to say that we weren't at the top of our game that day and part of that was us and part of that was BAD.

While I wish things would have gone differently (obviously), I give much respect to BAD for that bout and their win. I believe BAD exhibited a tremendous amount of work ethic and heart and deserved the win on that day. My team is still a very tough, talented, and intelligent team and I have a lot of respect for what they've been able to accomplish in the past couple of years. But, on that day, the better team won.

Now we need to set up the rematch...

Angus, many thanks.

A reason I asked is that - in the heat of watching the game - you don't have the long-term perspective of looking back at other games and seeing how much Denver has spanked really astounding teams this year:

(from FTS)
08/21/10 Home 180 Mad Rollin' Dolls Roller Derby 63 117
07/24/10 Visitor 208 Charm City Roller Girls 101 107
06/20/10 Visitor 106 Philly Roller Girls 119 -13
06/19/10 Visitor 203 Boston Derby Dames 100 103
06/12/10 Home 205 Rat City Roller Girls 135 70
05/15/10 Visitor 262 Duke City Derby 48 214
05/08/10 Home 130 Texas Rollergirls 112 18

We just saw Denver struggling and assumed that it was because too many had picked up on how to beat your strategies.

One of the aspects of the game that doesn't get written about very well is why a team lost. Hearing about it from the point of view of a coach is excellent. Angus, thank you very much for your insight.

hmmm...not sure

...why the denver vs philly bout was included in the list of spankings, when philly won. --- sorry !! i see what was implied now. whoooops.

'sallright.

Early morning postings always need more editing.

ALMOST all known bouts reflected

I don't mean to pick nits, but, Windy City's next bout is not 11/6 against TBA; it's 10/16 against Rose City. Which means Rose's next bout is not TBD, either.

by "all known bouts"

... what we mean is all bouts known to DNN, which we would love to make equal to all bouts known to anyone, but can only do with your help. Please use the Submit link in the site navigation to help us fill in gaps!

I've corrected the Windy City PNW omissions, thanks!

Side-note about Submissions

Is there a rough time-frame for the lag between entering a schedule submission and having it put up on the DNN Bouts schedule? I submitted one a week ago and fully understand that you guys are absolutely *flat out* with tournament season etc, so I'm just curious about rough time-frames during quiet and busy times...

bout result timeframes

I'm glad you asked. We need to keep making the process more transparent, so submitters know what to expect.

When we're not totally swamped, we enter information as we receive it. Since we're total internet nerds and we're online every waking moment, that's generally pretty quickly -- a few hours at most, a couple minutes a lot of the time.

As you pointed out, Regionals are our crazy-busiest time of the year, which means we have to triage and prioritize. When we're under load, we aim for these basic guidelines:

Upcoming bouts - get them entered no later than the week before the bout.

Scores for WFTDA Sanctioned bouts - no more than one hour after we receive them (immediately if possible). We don't always meet this goal, currently.

Scores for all other bouts - no more than 24 hours after we receive them. We are definitely hit or miss on this goal, as you're seeing. Consider this an invitation to nag us if 24 hours pass and you don't see the score you reported. Sometimes we haven't gotten to it yet, but every once in a while, we fat-fingered the date when we entered the data, so that'll help us catch our errors.

As we get into the off-season, we're gonna spend time improving our data collection and data entry tools, which in turn will allow us to get more people involved, which in turn should allow us to improve our turnaround time. I'm hoping by early 2011 we can get to a point where we've got an "on duty" data entry person or rotation of people throughout each weekend, getting scores plugged in within an hour (or whatever), regardless of bout type.

Yeah, I'm a dreamer. But I'm a dreamer with a track record.

I wanna take this opportunity to recognize Grand Poobah once again for the extensive, largely thankless work he does week after week after week getting data entered into Derbymatic. He's responsible for entering easily half and probably more like 2/3 of the bouts you see any time you look at the Bouts and Scores links on DNN. It is a TON of work. Thanks Poobah!

This is fabulous, thanks Hurt

This is fabulous, thanks Hurt :) and thanks Poobah and everyone else who helps out!

In all honesty I'm a DIY kinda girl and had I the know-how I'd happily add stuff myself - but DNN-wikipedia would be absolute BEDLAM, haha.

Humbled and proud

After several months on and off the bubble, I'm so proud to see Naptown in, arguably, one of the toughest spots in the top 25 to pick. All those teams who are still on the bubble are fabulous. We have a lot to prove to keep our spot on this list (and rise above 25!).

And don't you worry, Ms. Elle. We are well aware. Our season looks a lot like teams who will be ready for some revenge on us. We are STOKED and we are READY!

re: Humbled and proud

it's going to be SUCH a good game. both teams have been training hard and the last game was so close! soooo excited! and it will be *awesome* to see ya, sj!

Why Nashville over Steel?

Nashville definitely deserved their jump up the rankings after their excellent performance at South Central Regionals, but why rank them above Steel? The two teams played in late August with Steel coming out on top 182-69.

Yeah?

We got out butts handed to us. I would love a rematch with a full roster!

Can't argue your point

Steel City played Nashville as they were still in transition. It was maybe the third bout for several B team players who had just moved up because of injury and skaters moving away (Nashville was hit hard by both of those this year). That being said, you can't discount what Steel City did, they won, pretty handily. Like Rambo, I'd like to see that matchup today, can't say Nashville would win, but it would be a much better game.

Yeah, I think everyone in

Yeah, I think everyone in Nashville agrees with that.

No crying in baseball. No excuses in Derby. They whipped us good. But I would love to see a rematch. Come to Nashville Steele City! We have whiskey and banjos!

Man, you guys make it hard on us ...

... when fans of the higher-ranked team agree their team should be lower!

After seeing both Steel City and Nashville play in their respective regionals, though, I personally felt that Steel City played more or less to expectations (and needed a big comeback to avoid a major upset loss to Carolina) while Nashville played far over expectations (their defense in the Atlanta game, particularly the second half, was absolutely ridiculous.)

Although head-to-head results usually trump everything, sometimes we just see a team suddenly performing much better than previous evidence had suggested they could. A good recent example would be Kansas City / Atlanta -- going into SC Regionals we had KC ranked over ATL even though Atlanta had beaten KC in their last meeting.

As usual, bottom line is, given everything we currently know, we think Nashville would beat Steel City tomorrow. We could be wrong. It would most certainly not be the first time :)

We had similar feelings

Nashville fans had similar feelings early in the year when, while still undefeated, the first WFTDA quarterly rankings (and I have some pretty strong feelings about that process as well) had Atlanta 2 spots ahead of us after we had beaten them head to head. Nashville has come miles since that Steel City game, and I think we would have an excellent chance of beating them today as well, BUT I don't want to be a hypocrite and dismiss what they are saying because it does hold some water.

August??

Ally McKill wrote:

Nashville definitely deserved their jump up the rankings after their excellent performance at South Central Regionals, but why rank them above Steel? The two teams played in late August with Steel coming out on top 182-69.

Was a long time ago ina derby world far far away.... Providence beat Nashville in July.We don't deserve to be higher ranked than either time right now. This is this months rankings. One of the things I love about this game is how quickly everything changes.

Just happy to see a local team!

Being from Minnesota with the Vikings and the Twins sucking it up as usual.... I am happy as Hell to see MNRG with an impressive jump to number 14 on this months power rankings! Hope to be sitting track-side in Chicago in less than a month as well!

Jet

I'm glad Jet City is on the bubble. Despite the lopsided score I felt they put up a hell of a fight during our game at Westerns, and they did it with the good teamwork that is the foundation to any solid team. Add to that the information that they were down multiple main rotation jammers when we played them and I think (once they're all healed!) they'll be doing some great things in the future. I also heard they were scrimmaging regularly with Rat, which of course can only help both teams. Viva la West!

WHAT??? IT'S AN OUTRAGE I

WHAT??? IT'S AN OUTRAGE I TELL YOU!!!

Slacker

revnorb wrote:

WHAT??? IT'S AN OUTRAGE I TELL YOU!!!

Dude, you were TOTALLY late on that. Get your $#!t together, Norb.

No way, i was already

No way, i was already bitching in advance for November.

I like it.

Overall, I like it. I think there are some interesting conversation starters, but that's the whole point. It's nice how everybody plays everybody this time of year and clears everything up... well, not really. I can't wait for the January rankings when nobody is playing and DNN has to do rankings by Tea Leaves. :)

Not nobody....

Some teams play in Jan. Our 5th season is JUST starting. ;-)

MNRG +1's Strawberry Jam.

...but not in a dirty way.

MNRG has their home bouts (including a Naptown bout! FEEL the zomg) in February, March, and April this year instead of putting them smackdab during The Big Five. Those will get us off to a nice start into summer tournament season.

-Garrison Killer

So How long

Does London get a free spot on the rankings without any data added to the pool?

I get that they are geographically in a really tough spot and I definitely love them, but seriously, how long is the data good for? When does the initial comparative set run out on this one?

london's statute of limitations

i'm wondering that too. given the gnarly power rankings shakeups since they proved themselves back in may, i think their ranking should be asterisked (is that a word?) or something.

The problem *kinda* fixes itself

London originally came on at #15, but has been slowly & steadily getting nudged down as more teams debut (or re-appear) by defeating or playing well against the teams above them. It's definitely not a perfect system but we feel it's better than saying "if you haven't played for X amount of months, you're unrankable."

As for how long it takes until data degrades ... that's a big "it depends." I believe the longest run on the Power Rankings without a bout was from Windy City, who had no all-star games between November 2009 and May 2010, which is about as long as London's current quiet streak. At that point WCR was #10, and since they started playing again haven't deviated more than one space in either direction.

I think the concern is that

I think the concern is that teams can artificially inflate, intentionally or nonintentially, their standing by playing few games. Not that they pick which games they play to determine their DNN status.

Well we figure...

...it won't last forever and respect the degradation of data is inevitable. We are used to being the bleeding edge for all things international. No worries. :)

There will be more games eventually (grumble grumble...venues...flights....money...bah)

also, dang

B.A.D. and Montreal are tied at 18 sanctioned games played so far this season.
That's a f*cking Puritan work ethic if I've ever seen one. Nice work girls!

-Mox

Although Dallas fell off the chart this month

They currently hold what I believe is the record for most sanctioned games in a single year -- they've played 23 (!) this year.

23 games = record, but also peaking TOO EARLY in the season lol

the Dallas girls just ended up playing game after game after game in the tournaments they entered this season, it was crazy! i think in hindsight, it messed with all the girls and leveling too early to their peak in the season, that hurt us alot this year... but we did find out that the team can def go to tournaments and play as many games as possible.
i don't think we plan on doing that again anytime soon, and we are going to pay closer attention to levels and peaking at the correct time in the season, instead of at the end of the second quarter of the year....

23 games seems trivial when

23 games seems trivial when compared to other sports (we'll, besides football, but they are a bunch of fat idiots so who cares). If anything rankings should be based purely on win/loss not on score differential, but when teams play so few games something like score differential is needed. What WFTDA needs to do is setup a promotion/relegation system similar to pro soccer teams in europe. For example, English Football has the Premier league that comprises the top 20 teams in the nation. The worst 3 teams for the premier league are relegated at the end of the season to a lower tier league. And the top teams in the lower tier are promoted up to the Premier league for the next year. This forces the top teams to only play other top teams rather than beat up on weak teams for the hopes that their scoring differential is better than another team that beat up on that same weaker team.

A few flaws with that...

The Cheet wrote:

23 games seems trivial when compared to other sports (we'll, besides football, but they are a bunch of fat idiots so who cares). If anything rankings should be based purely on win/loss not on score differential, but when teams play so few games something like score differential is needed. What WFTDA needs to do is setup a promotion/relegation system similar to pro soccer teams in europe. For example, English Football has the Premier league that comprises the top 20 teams in the nation. The worst 3 teams for the premier league are relegated at the end of the season to a lower tier league. And the top teams in the lower tier are promoted up to the Premier league for the next year. This forces the top teams to only play other top teams rather than beat up on weak teams for the hopes that their scoring differential is better than another team that beat up on that same weaker team.

A few flaws with doing that. 1) EPL teams have huge sponsorship deals & billionaire owners. 2) Having such makes travel much easier, especially since Great Britain is on 84,600 sq miles. The US is over 3,700,000 sq miles. Add in Canada, going to GB, Europe or Australia to play and that makes for some pretty expensive trips for a DIY sport. 3) Without a standardized schedule there is no way to honestly pick the top 20 teams in the sport. Sure we can pick out the top 8 or 10 (sit down Western Region) but after that it gets a bit murky. 4) There are players now that move to try and be on top teams. How do you think that is going to go once such a system is put in place? While that would basically make us have top 20 teams of the very best skaters in the WFTDA, any future great players aren't going to want to stick with their league while it builds itself up to try to crack the top 20. Top teams will stay there and smaller leagues will not get the chance to work their way up.

One day, far in the future, I could see having A, B & C level clubs but not any time soon. The sport has too far to go right now to be able to do it.

Gotham slip up?

Can't say I agree with the assessment of Gotham having a "late game collapse" they changed their style of play and lineups according to the score. Sure they could have kept the train on track and ran up the score, what does that accomplish?..oh wait, I guess it keeps you from dropping in the rankings.
I did enjoy getting to watch Bonnie play blocker.
Nothing against Philly, I think that game proved how smart the Belles are and if you give them an inch you will quickly regret it. Don't be surprised if their understanding of the game and how to make a team beat themselves punches them a ticket to the finals.

i don't agree with either assessment

historically, gotham isn't a team who "takes it easy" if they're winning by 245932439 points. for example, when they played windy at the ECE, they were up by quite a bit + still called a time out at the end to fit in another jam (presumably, to score more points).

so to suggest they played according to score seems absurd.

i think what the world isn't used to seeing is them expanding their jammer rotation a bit + having their superstar jammers block more. really, this is extremely smart of them as it's difficult to sustain a 2 jammer rotation in today's derby landscape + it's evident they have the talent to share the duties a bit. plus, rockstar jammers tend to be rockstar blockers, too.

for what it's worth, i also don't agree with the assertion that they had a "late game collapse" either. really, penalties just added up + philly knew how to take advantage.

philly really didn't play their best game for most of that bout, but suggesting there is some gap or that they (we) got lucky with gotham "relaxing" or "collapsing" is just lame. even great teams have an off game sometimes...and it can be such a great learning tool to experience a loss like this.

Yes. Correct.

violet wrote:

...rockstar jammers tend to be rockstar blockers...

DING! DING! DING!
WINNAH! WINNAH! WINNAH! WINNAH! WINNAH!

Can't imagine...

anyone's relaxing at this point. Any vulnerability exposed at championships will be set upon and exploited. Count on it.

The Cycrone! #63
Philly Roller Girls

I'd put the heaviest weight on making geographic sense

If the excuse. errr... argument for not doing divisions with a mandated number of regional/divisional games (mandatory 6 regional games, 4 in your division to qualify for tournament for example) is "travel cost", then having a region, containing a division of say Nashville, Memphis, Knoxville, Atlanta, and maybe somebody like Indy makes a TON of sense. I bet you could make regions where every team was within a days drive, and divisions within 6 hours or so. Some divisions would be weak, and some would be loaded, just like every other sport on the planet, but at least then tournament seeding would be decided by what you did on the track, not some subjective system.

More WFTDA sanctioned tournaments?

Ideally, each team should play every team in their region, but teams really don't want to play that often mainly because they make more money running inter-league bouts. Financially it's sort of stupid to rent a stadium/arena for a bout only to pay half the ticket sales to the travelling team, when you can do an inter-league bout, sell just as many (usually more) tickets and pocket all of the cash. The WFTDA sanctioned tournament solution seems to have helped a lot this year. Teams can do a weekend travel, get in about 2-4 WFTDA games, and not lose much money in the process. Play 3 or 4 tournaments, and you can essentially play every team in your region. The problem is the tournaments are not region based, and not all of them are WFTDA sanctioned. We need more WFTDA sanctioned tournaments, and they need to be coordinated so that every team plays a different team. There was some attempt with Wild Wild West, East Coast Extravaganza and, Hometown Throwdown, which is great we need more of those.

OLY is back in a big way! sorry windy, oly 220 to windy 61

You all should have seen oly handle windy tonight. it was bad and oly had smiles all around the whole game. It was not the same team at all (the team claiming to be oly in the regional play offs) This was like the old oly that we saw rise to the top and dominate others. this team tonight played as a team work great together and had blonde an bitchn back on the track creating some havoc for windy. This was the old oly all the way. If flat track stats is right and according to the way DNN makes the rankings this bout would adjust the rankings again considering that gothem vs windy was a 141 point spread and the rocky vs windy was a 95 point differential in august. ???

Glad Oly is looking great but

Disclamer: I don't live in Chicago. I do not personally know anyone on WCR. Val Capone makes me laugh. If I had a choice between a WCR bout and a bout at the same time with a team whose name starts with the letter R, R wins every time (all 3 of them). However, they would be tied with a certain place in Del Mar & all bouts fail my watching attention vs Historic Filipinotown (luckly that almnost never happens).

Windy City played a very tough bout against Rose last night & had to drive to Olympia today for the Oly bout. Not a lot of rest for the Windy team. However that isn't an excuse just setting the scene. Now while I am sure the WCR wanted to win the Oly bout, what was more important: winning the bout or getting a good hard look at how Oly is playing? Loosing may have actually been a win for Windy City. How you ask? Simple: Windy tried their plays & Oly basically punted them. Now, if the WCR are smart and I think they are, they took lots of notes (and maybe video) and will break down what worked & what didn't. They have 3 weeks before the championships and you know that they are going to go back and fine tune everything. They won't have to face Oly again until the semi-finals (and they both should make it that far) and I think the bout will be a lot closer that last night's result. I still think Oly will win but Windy City will make it a much better fight than the bout last night.

Of course, Oly being Oly, will keep up with training like mad for Chicago. My only fear with Oly is that they get so worked up about things that at the first sign of things not going the way they want that Oly cracks. We have all seen it in sports before. Team A is playing a big match with Team B and Team B goes all out to prepare. They do tons of extra work, they study,study & study some more. They get super pumped up and go out for the showdown knowing everyone is watching. Things start to go Team B's way but one little thing happens and BOOM! They start falling apart and in the end lose. I DO NOT WANT OLY TO DO THIS! I want them ready, focused and prepared but not overly so. That way we all win but an Oly vs Rocky 2 in the finals (or Oly vs Gotham rematch from last years final bout).

/this message sponsored by Speedbump and his new "My #4 can beat your #1" t-shirts. Now available everywhere

yes they did make the 2 hour

nevermind

It will be interesting to see

It will be interesting to see the bout in a few weeks when the setting is reversed, WCR in their hometown instead of Oly in theirs, and Oly having played the night before and WCR not having played a previous tourney game.

Oly will be warmed up. I've

Oly will be warmed up.

I've only seen two games where it looked like Oly broke a sweat. Gotham at Nationals and RMRG at Besterns this year. I don't think it'll be a handicap in WCR's favor.

Assuming.....

Oly gets past Nashville...
A fair assumption, but then again, that's why they play the game.

Whatever. Rose spanked Windy

Whatever. Rose spanked Windy the night before and they didn't even qualify for nationals. Was this bout wftda sanctioned? It doesn't show up on DNN or FTS etc...

yes it was sanctioned by

yes it was sanctioned by wftda. and yeah rose beat them 134 to 90 i believe it was.. but yeah they are not going to nationals and oly and windy is.

Wouldn't that be our #6 beat your #1?

Going back one year Windy is 0-4 vs the West (RMRG, OLY, Rose, Denver) for a combined differential of

-331 (thanks fts)

of course 203 of that came from this weekend (Rose +44, and Oly +159).

and a side note: Windy beat Texas (granted lost #1 at tourney but still)

All I am saying is as a fan, I want the best playing for the Hydra every year, the top #12 of WFTDA. Right now and I am sure every year previously there has been these disparities. And other Regions will get better and others will stall out, but when November comes the top 12 of all of WFTDA should be playing for the Hydra. So just for arguements sake I will take the DNN top 12 and show you what that looks like.

Rocky Mountain (West #1)
Gotham (East #1)
Oly (West #2)
Philly (East #2)
Bay Area (West #3)
Rose City (West #4)
Rat City (West #5)
Denver (West #6)
Charm City (East #3)
Windy City (NE #1)
Kansas City (SE #1)
Texas (SE #2)

Now that could be very interesting. Now for those teams not in that top 12, I totally respect what your doing so please take this as only a fans perspective. I mean even with this setup blowouts will happen.

But to make things even more intresting I would like to see;

Minnesota vs Texas

and a

Madison vs Kansas City

for those last two spots in the WFTDA Championships.

Just wondering....

12!=40

G. No-Evil wrote:

I want the best playing for the Hydra every year... but when November comes the top 12 of all of WFTDA should be playing for the Hydra

The best are playing for the Hydra every year, it just includes 40 teams not 12. If the top 12 WFTDA teams aren't in those 40, then there's definitely a huge disparity, but I'm pretty certain we all agree that's not the case.

The playoffs BEGIN with regionals. This is similar to other sports like the NHL and NBA, where the playoffs last for over two months. It's always possible that the best two teams aren't in the finals, because those two teams met in an earlier round. This is okay and, in fact, very healthy for the sport as a whole. That example isn't unique to n=2; the logic holds true for greater values of n as well.

In reality, the point of the Hydra is to determine the single best team. Everything beyond that is to increase drama, grow ticket sales and fan support, and (at this stage) to improve the overall level of play across the nation.

WFTDA could decide that only the #1 team from each region gets to play in Champs, but I'm glad that they do it the way they do, because then I get to see teams play other teams that I wouldn't see as often (e.g. Charm vs Minnesota).

Yes!

Thank you for putting this into a coherent explanation!

It IS frustrating for leagues in tougher regions, and coming from Charm City, I feel the pain of a team on the cusp! But this is how regions and divisions work, and how upsets and Cinderella stories happen which is part of the fun! Welcome to sports?

Teams from weaker regions also gain something from playing at the higher level - isn't this how we justify blowouts and terribly uneven matchups throughout the regular season? - so all the more reason to keep the high quality derby trickling down to weaker regions and newer teams!

The derby landscape is still changing by the MONTH sometimes. Look at BAD and Minnesota and their "coming from nowhere" at Regionals. Maybe next year we'll all be getting stomped by the North Central region when a sudden population boom hits the Northwest and the Northeast and entire travel teams start popping out babies. Or, holy crap, maybe CANADA will come and dominate! Oh noooooooes, the NEON, the maple leaves!

So let's focus on the REALLY annoying thing about the regions. Can we all just agree that North Central and South Central are confusing names and just go East/West/North/South?

Quibble and Agreement

I have only one quibble, and that's that Bay Area "coming from nowhere". Minnesota and Nashville are the true Cinderella stories of the year. But Bay Area came into Westerns ranked in DNN's top 10, that's hardly nowhere. What was fun about Westerns was that so many really good teams (6 of the top 8) had a reasonable chance at going to Nationals, and the level of derby was really high.

Yes, WFTDA drop that "Central" tag already. And you're also right that derby changes MONTHLY, and sometimes dramatically; cue the Cinderellas.

Stupid Internet. Where's my emoticon?

Yes, the coming from nowhere part was a somewhat snarky use of the term. That said, in such a tough region, I think lots of people were surprised by BAD - if not at Regionals, certainly at Hometown Throwdown. They may not have been the Cinderella story of Westerns, but they've certainly taken some pretty huge hops up the rankings this year.

The playoffs begin with regionals

N8 wrote:

The playoffs BEGIN with regionals. This is similar to other sports like the NHL and NBA, where the playoffs last for over two months. It's always possible that the best two teams aren't in the finals, because those two teams met in an earlier round. This is okay and, in fact, very healthy for the sport as a whole. That example isn't unique to n=2; the logic holds true for greater values of n as well.

Does N8 have a newsletter? 'cuz I'll totally subscribe to that.

Yawn

Is anyone else getting tired of the west coast whining? I know I am. Seriously.

If you have a problem with your region getting only three slots, maybe you should change regions. Yup, that's right: your whole city should up and move. Well, maybe just your whole league should move to another city. I mean, you're better than (insert team here), right? Go move to their city and prove it.

Or you can do the realistic thing and quit complaining. There's a path to the Championships; if you didn't make it this year, maybe you just have to do better next year.

Yep.

Killsbury Doughboy wrote:

Or you can do the realistic thing and quit complaining. There's a path to the Championships; if you didn't make it this year, maybe you just have to do better next year.

Yep.

If you can't even finish 3rd in your region, you don't deserve to play for the championship. I don't care where DNN ranks you.

really?

it's frustrating when the championship tournament is suppossed to be where the best teams in the country meetup and it's hard knowing that your team isn't going when you have won or could win handlily over teams that have an easier path to the big show. There are pros and cons, just like everything else. Being in a tougher region may be to your advantage to push yourself and your team to get better to compete with the other top teams, on the downside your road to a title or a tournament is a lot rockier. It was heartbreaking to not be able to play in the championships in 2009 but other teams have and will be in this position in the past and again in the future.

The championship tournament

The championship tournament is supposed to determine a champion.

yeah....and a second and

yeah....and a second and third place. We could also just determine the "champion" by tea leaves or by triangulation without putting on an event. And it's to showcase the best teams in the WFTDA not the one best team, but you'd know more than me since i have no WFTDA affiliation.

Okay

Let's get rid of the regions and regionals. WFTDA voters will determine the 12 best teams in the country by vote.

It'll be replicating the success of the BCS in college football. The one sport where everyone absolutely loves the postseason.

In the year 3000...

We will no longer actually use the teams playing each other to determine the winner. Mascots and superfans will instead fight to the death, gladiator style to determine the WFTDA Champion.

I like this dystopian view.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Yeah!

Especially since Charm has Bane-ana, and nobody would fight him. They'd all fall on their swords!

Assuming that Bane lives until the year 3000 that is. I have faith though.

Ayup.

Holly Gohardly wrote:

it's frustrating when the championship tournament is suppossed to be where the best teams in the country meetup and it's hard knowing that your team isn't going when you have won or could win handlily over teams that have an easier path to the big show.

That's the thing; it's not supposed to be 'where the best teams in the country meet up'. It's supposed to determine a WFTDA champion. It does that by taking the top three teams from each region, based on the regional tournaments.

How else is it supposed to happen? It's already bad enough (in my mind) that regional invites are done by voting; should WFTDA do what Chuck said and just vote teams straight to the Championship tournament?

Should there also be special dispensation for teams that are better on paper but lost to other teams in their regional tournament? Should Atlanta be going to the Championships instead of Nashville? Should Minnesota get shut out--even though they stepped up in their regional--because someone else thinks another team is "better" than them?

You play the teams that are put in front of you. If you make it, good for you. If you don't, don't complain that someone had an "easier path"; go get better so you can beat the team(s) that beat you.

I agree that all one can

I agree that all one can reasonably expect from championships is the determination of a champion. However, I can say that I would prefer to watch a tournament that wasn't filled with blowouts. People have been asking if I'm doing a party at my place for championships and really, there are maybe 2 or 3 bouts I'm interested in watching but most of it is just MEH. Maybe that's how it should be, it's not like the goal should be bouts that more people want to watch, but it would be nice if that was the case. If nothing else, I'm hoping we'll see a break from the last 2 years and have a championship bout that isn't itself a blowout.

Please get over it.

In MLB, the best teams in the American League compete against each other, the best teams in the National League compete against each other, then the winners play each other in the World Series.

In the NFL, the best teams in the NFC and the AFC eventually meet in the Super Bowl.

That's the way it works in WFTDA, too, except there are more divisions. The best teams in each region play the best teams in the other regions. If you don't like it because right now -- at this point in time -- the West has a larger number of good teams, you'll just have to deal with it. There are other leagues that "should have made it" in every damn region, not just Western. Continuing to complain about it is getting really damn annoying.

Five years from now, if every league in Texas becomes awesome, will you still want there to be a Championship that includes Texas, Dallas, Houston, Alamo City, Assassination City, West Texas, as well as four also-rans?

West Texas

I'm glad West Texas have made the power rankings message boards. Get a workin ladies! Make it happen.

Finally!

Texas has a mathematical chance of making up half of Regionals!

Texas can do it!

You bet! Texas can do it. South Central consider yourself warned.

Wait, is that laughter I hear from the state of Tennessee?

ummmm they came close last year

last year saw texas, houston, dallas, and west texas all competing in south central regionals. that's pretty close to half. :)

Yep.

Tennessee has three south Central teams, and two apprentice leagues (I think). All three Tennesse teams made regionals.

Yes and that is

John_Maddening wrote:

Texas has a mathematical chance of making up half of Regionals!

Yes & that is at least 2 teams appretice leagues can beat too.

I've thought of many

I've thought of many suggestions to make, or warning signs to post, that might delay the inevitable consequences of the fault lines I see developing.

But then I decided to sit back and wait for the earthquake.

Stirring the pot

Killsbury Doughboy wrote:

Is anyone else getting tired of the west coast whining? I know I am. Seriously.

If you have a problem with your region getting only three slots, maybe you should change regions. Yup, that's right: your whole city should up and move. Well, maybe just your whole league should move to another city. I mean, you're better than (insert team here), right? Go move to their city and prove it.

Or you culd just come to Florida. Warm most of the year, lots of beaches, Disney, tons of stuff to do. We could use more WFTDA teams here. Who knows when we will get the next one.....

I guess it is a broken record

And maybe someday......

All leagues will compete in several events like flat, banked, women, men, jr and coed.

*dreaming*

An you could call it the

G. No-Evil wrote:

And maybe someday......

All leagues will compete in several events like flat, banked, women, men, jr and coed.

*dreaming*

And you could call a heptrackalon.

How about Super Derby X!

How about Super Derby X! Where 1/2 the track is flat, another 1/2 is banked, and in between you have jumps and stuff. Actually, I'm just waiting for a hybrid sport that is combination between lacrosse and roller hockey, but played on motorized skateboards in a huge cement bowl. A cross between Solarbabies and that one episode of Max Headroom with the gladiator motorized skateboarders. That would so cool.

I think a track like the ones

I think a track like the ones used in Jam City Rollergirls would be pretty cool. Without the cows. Part flat, part banked, with some right turns and with crazy ramps for jumping.

Kinda like Formula One roller derby.

Edit: but it would take a really really long time to lap the pack.

Right Turns

Busta Armov wrote:

...right turns....

I clipped the bejeebers outta that quote, and found a skew tangent, but I sure do like right turns. I wish derby would switch directions at half-time. It would mean the track would have to be reset at half-time (the wide side at the apex isn't symmetric - is that the case in most banked formats or is the track symmetric?). Switching would be so much better on the skaters legs and torsos.

Cheers,
Mr. Juice

Your answer

Figure Eight tracks.

Brilliant idea

N8 wrote:

Figure Eight tracks.

I have a BRILLIANT idea. We'll do a figure-eight track, but we'll make one of the loops have a super-high bank turn. I don't know we'll call it the "WALL OF DEATH" or something, that sounds cool. Let's also put a jump in there too, maybe at the cross-over point of the track. In fact, let's give people extra points for doing the jump! People like points. You know what else people like? ALLIGATORS!! Let's put an alligator pit in the infield, that'd be sweet.

(Feel free to apply the appropriate level of sarcasm to this post.)

I dunno

I still kinda like my idea for an inverted banked track...

this

WindyMan wrote:
N8 wrote:

Figure Eight tracks.

I have a BRILLIANT idea. We'll do a figure-eight track, but we'll make one of the loops have a super-high bank turn. I don't know we'll call it the "WALL OF DEATH" or something, that sounds cool. Let's also put a jump in there too, maybe at the cross-over point of the track. In fact, let's give people extra points for doing the jump! People like points. You know what else people like? ALLIGATORS!! Let's put an alligator pit in the infield, that'd be sweet.

WIN

you know, as long as the tie-breaker includes having 2 skaters go at each other trying to hit the other into the pool of alligators.

Banked tracks are sort of

Banked tracks are sort of symmetrical. But in the case of Kitten Traxx (LA, SD, AZ, OK, South Side, TTRB), the track is raised a little higher on turns 2 and 4.

At Rollercon...

The Las Vegas Sports Center has a go-kart track that has left and right turns, and some flat areas and some banked areas. I'm shocked nobody tried to skate on it.

A lot of people talked about,

A lot of people talked about, but it had some qualities that are patently unsafe, insurance wouldn't cover it, and it was 115 degrees outside.

Coed? Really Geno? I would

Coed? Really Geno? I would probably get beat down quickly because I was raised to never hit a woman. (Even if she is bigger than me.)

Sigh.

Not to be a jerk, but I hear this a lot, and it's annoying. Assault != competitive sports. A lot of guys seem to think that saying they would never hit a woman under *any* circumstances makes them gentlemanly, but as far as I'm concerned, it makes them sexist for assuming female players can't take it. Just my $0.02.

Co-ed derby is the most fun thing I've ever done in my life. Well, except for that other thing. Oh, and that other thing too. But it's REALLY high up there.

Not a jerk at all

You make a good point, Justice. I suppose a lot of girls can take a hit from a guy and can hit back just as well. I'm just permanently scarred by my traditional upbringing. My mind would see that as flirting no matter how rough it got.
On the other hand I wouldn't think twice about stuffing a guy into the crowd of spectators. :D

amen to this.

thank you, justice.

it irritates the dogpiss out of me sometimes that folks think women can't take hits from men. i love playing derby against guys, although my experiences in getting to hit dudes and getting hit by dudes is somewhat limited. i really would like to play coed derby though. (just like i would like the opportunity at some point to try out banked track.)

i've taken out dudes a lot bigger than me and have gotten the crap knocked out of me by girls much tinier than i, which leads me to my next point. truth be told, we all have our advantages and disadvantages as players, regardless of our gender. some people are stronger/more powerful, while others are more agile, while others are faster, while some others have insane control. gender has nothing to do with what makes you a great skater. a well-landed, well-timed hit will down anyone.

It's just physical size and strength

There may not be many of them playing right at this moment, but you could potentially have a man with the stats of an NFL linebacker (6'3", 255 lbs, 4.5 forty time, squat a VW Jetta), hitting what would be a considered a big woman (6', 190 lbs). The result would be her having a nice vacation in the hospital.

I dunno...

I'm 6'5" 300ish, and I've played in co-ed scrimmages many times. It's pretty much no quarter asked, no quarter given, and there haven't been any hospital trips involved.

Equalizer

Skates are the great equalizer.
I weigh a buck twenty and If I get put into the crowd, I deserved it.
In our last home game, I thought I could get around a 280 pounder on the outside just using speed. Negative. Went to visit the spectators. Good times.
I skate with my head on a swivel.

Note I had other stats included

Big isn't the whole story, and skates might "equalize" on some level, BUT let a 265 lb man, in top physical condition (think Ray Lewis for example), who had been skating since he was a kid, hit at full speed and power a 175 lb woman in top physical condition who had been skating since she was a kid, and she just might be killed.

So why doesn't this happen

So why doesn't this happen when, say, a 265 lb man hits a 130 lb man? Likewise for women? Or do you really believe that there are some magic protective powers granted by your "pants yabbies" that women simply don't have? I assure you, the aforementioned anatomical parts are not much of an advantage.

Uh.... it WOULD happen

How many 130 lb men do you see playing contact sports? The average running back in the NFL is about 210 lbs. Why, because he couldn't take the physical pounding if he were much smaller. Occasionally you'll see a 180 lb player, but that is considered small, and someone who has to be 'protected" to a degree lest they get killed.

The women who play derby are tough as nails, and many of them are very strong, but you take a man and woman of equal size, and equal level of training, and the man is going to be stronger and faster every single time. It's just genetics and hormones. Take a guy who can skate, and is in decent physical shape, and put him against a highly trained/skilled, extremely well conditioned female, and she'll hold her own, maybe even rough him up, no doubt. That's not what we're talking about, weekend warrior guys against women who live roller derby. We're talking about a top male athlete against a top female athlete in a contact sport. It's recipe for disaster.

Yes I have

DoctorGonzo wrote:

How many 130 lb men do you see playing contact sports?

Try Rugby. And they don't even wear pads.

Are you out there G. No?

You might want to hear from G. No Evil and other Puget Sound Outcasts about what happens Sunday mornings when big, strong men skate with the poor defenceless women who skate for Oly.

The question would be...

Do any of them look like they could play middle linebacker for the NY Giants, and is their skating on the same skill level as the women, and is their training/conditioning on the same level as the women? Just because no men like that are skating right now, doesn't mean they never would.

This is about the dumbest conversation ever. A woman can train from now until the end of time, and she will never be James Harrison, she is genetically incapable of it, her muscles (because of hormonal differences) just can't get as big and strong. Oh yeah, there are 6'3" 270 lb women, there sure are, and they could become very strong through training, but they STILL wouldn't be James Harrison because they don't have the testosterone level required to build that much muscle mass.

If I got out there the ladies would KILL me. That's not the point.

You're right

even though you'll get no agreement from the audience of this site.

Put Serena Williams in shoulder pads and hand her a football and see how long she lasts in an NFL game.

Oh I'd agree with you about

Oh I'd agree with you about an NFL game. But that's not what we're talking about, is it? Derby is a bit different, and given the difference in mass between, say, Anya Heels and Angela Death, I'm a bit skeptical that testicles will have much bearing on the outcome. Especially not to the point of someone dying.

I think killing was an exaggeration

but, an NFL player with Anya Heels' mass (and derby experience) is going to be much stronger and faster than her. Therefore, the hit is going to be a shit ton harder.

If we bust out our physics books, we'll remember that Force = mass x acceleration. Acceleration is where strength and speed come into play and they're equally as important as how heavy the hitter is.

I get to talk physics on the internet!

Yes your equation is true, but you're not talking about the right thing. That equation (and your argument) says that if two skaters are the same mass, but one applies more force to their mass, they will achieve a greater acceleration.

The proper equations you want to use involve momentum transfer. The skater that is able to achieve a greater acceleration will have a greater top speed, but it's linear: velocity = acceleration x time. In a completely inelastic collision (meaning all of the available energy is absorbed... by doing things like causing friction between the wheels and the track or by causing bruising or breaking bones... so worst case scenario... a completely elastic collision would lose no energy in the impact and no one would get hurt) the energy lost ends up* being proportional to the square of the initial velocity of the skater doing the hitting.

Of course, the argument here is not about physics, it's about physiology. On that I am no expert. We would need to know how much a person can accelerate on skates in an attempt to hit another person. We would also need to know how much punishment a person can take before suffering dire consequences. The former I suspect we could convince Sports Science to run some fun tests on; the latter I suspect would be far more difficult.

But please, if you're going to attempt to argue with physics, please get it right. I suspect Xena would appreciate it as well (are there any other derby physicists out there?).

*It would be hard for me to solve the equations here without being able to draw pictures. basically, you begin in the reference frame where the jammer is stationary and in the end the two skaters are traveling with the same velocity. You use momentum (mass*velocity) conservation to find the final velocity, and then find the initial and final energies (1/2*mass*velocity^2) for the before and after scenarios, and then subtract them. The change in energy I calculated was 1/2*((B*J)/(B+J))*Vi^2 where B is the mass of the blocker, J is the mass of the jammer, and Vi is the initial velocity of the incoming blocker relative to the jammer (we're assuming the jammer is getting hit by a blocker and the jammer is the one we're worried about receiving any injuries).

p.s. I did this calculation at 2AM, so it could easily have a mistake in it.

It has been since high school

but I did take 2 years of physics, but I also took 3 years of Spanish y no hablo espanol.

You're right, I used it wrong but my point still stands, the stronger somebody is to push off their wheels and use their legs, hips and shoulders in the impact and the faster somebody is in getting turnover in their legs, the faster their velocity changes from skating forward in the pack to the split second before coming in contact with the jammer which means the force in their hit is going to be much bigger than someone that is weak and slow but weighs the same.

Aren't you overlooking something?

I am not going to argue the whole Men vs Women muscle mass thing. It's a proven scientific fact. But aren't you overlooking the fact that the person getting hit has been trained on how to get hit properly. Yes, there is the change of somebody getting blindsided but a lot of the time you have a general idea that Maggie McBodybaggie is about it hit you, so you can either brace for it or try to counterblock it. Depending on what type of hit & exactly how hard it is you do have options when going down to lessen the impact. Also I am sure we have all seen someone spin out of a sure knockdown block and just keep on trucking. Now even with the best training injuries still happen, but part of training is learning the fact you will be hit in a game & how to deal with it in the best way possible.

/who doesn't like seeing someone 100 lbs dripping wet take out someone twice thier size with a well executed block?

A football comparison

vicorp wrote:

But aren't you overlooking the fact that the person getting hit has been trained on how to get hit properly.

No, because the point was made with the assumption that the two people involved are properly trained. They teach you how to take hits in football, for example; you could train a well-built female how to properly take a hit or block from a male football player, but if he's twice as strong and 40 pounds heavier, her good technique or form would probably be compromised by his raw strength and power and it would be bad news for her if the guy really put all his weight behind it.

While skates are the great equalizer, and are why men and women can effectively play the same game of roller derby, I don't think it would practical or ultimately safe for well-trained and well-conditioned men and women to play against each other at the same time. Again, as an example, a lot of the big hits we're seeing in the NFL lately are because the guy giving it is doing so illegally (leading with the helmet), the guy taking it doesn't know it's coming (blind-side QB hits), or both. It's not for lack of training on either side.

Remember, derby is a contact sport, and all players need to have their wits about them at all times, regardless if it's a man or woman lining up to hit them.

The way the WFTDA and similar

The way the WFTDA and similar rules work, a lot of advantages of size and weight are counter balanced. In terms of skill, some of those Pacific Northwest skaters are amazeballs and in many ways, arguably equal to or better than many Oly skaters.

Height and use of the upper body are negated, for example, by the likelyhood of high blocking calls against smaller skaters. Especially when those smaller skaters skate low.

Mass is also a problem. If a team has too many high mass players in defense, their collective ability to sprint and avoid trapping or race to build and rebuild a front wall becomes a problem.

On penalties, higher mass skaters also draw majors more often because the effect of their actions is amplified.

When it comes down to it, there's no proof that you'll have a bunch of James Harrisons in roller derby. So far it hasn't happened. But there are a lot of reasons why roller derby may not find Men Of Unusually Large Size advantages, any more than basketball has a use for linebackers. So it might not happen very often if it ever does. Until it actually happens, it's science fiction.

What if someone like Scott

What if someone like Scott Stevens or Bob Probert decided to play derby? They can skate and more importantly hit just as hard as a linebacker. All because someone is 300lbs, doesn't mean they can't move fast. Plus, quad skates only make it easier for bigger guys to skate. Not to mention the little guy enforcers like Tie Domi who make a career injuring people with low hip checks. It doesn't matter how well you brace yourself for a hit, physics will eventually win. Imagine hockey defense men dropping in on one another from the top rail at full speed. They'll run out of skaters in week. I'm guessing that's half the reason why fake derby has mock fighting, and some might argue that's why the NHL still has fighting.

It Bob Probert decided to

It Bob Probert decided to play derby we might have a bigger problem on our hands than injury...

Perhaps a zombie league might be in order.

High sticking!

The NFL comparison never works for me. Ray Lewis on skates? I'm not seeing it.

Hockey comparisons works better. And Cami Granato could certainly take a hit.

I don't think Roller Derby and football translate into the same skills being used the same way. There's hitting going on, but it's not the same kind of hitting. No one in roller derby is getting tackled. And many many many of the injuries in football come from the impact of the player to the ground/field/other player's leg/shoe/whatever (Joe Thiesman for a really gruesome example). Not exactly the impact of the hit, but the impact of the aftermath of the hit. Barring the exceptionally illegal helmet to helmet contact of course.

-Wheel Smith

Coed

WheelSmith wrote:

The NFL comparison never works for me. Ray Lewis on skates? I'm not seeing it.

Hockey comparisons works better. And Cami Granato could certainly take a hit.

-Wheel Smith

I do agree that a hockey comparison works better, but in women's hockey there is no checking and the majority of contact is done with elbows and hips (to protect the stick and puck) making it very different than men's hockey which is reliant on checking and significant body contact.

I think that men and women playing derby have a level playing field in terms of hitting, because the different sizes, shapes, and speed of each individual opens up of the options for anything to happen. If you think about all the 100 pound women that speeds through the pack with 200+ pound women trying to hit them, I would rather a guy that's only 40 pounds heavier than me trying to hit me.

It is more unsafe to be skating in a group of Fresh Meat who don't know how to hit and don't know how to take a hit rather than jamming in a group of men and women who know what they are doing.

Once derby becomes a more advanced sport (meaning there are many levels of playing ranging from beginner-World Class levels) then I would say we need to keep them separated, but at this point there are not enough high level derby players to make men and women kill each other on the track.

I'm on this boat

Sorry but if you're a 6'5 300lb NFL (hence MALE) linebacker type, who knows how to skate, I do not want to get a well-timed derby-legal hit from you (especially when I'm playing blocking dummy).

There's a reason why there're weight classes in fighting. I'm playing a sport (rules!), not fighting for my life (I can't hit you in the you-know-what), at some point yes there is unfairness in size/strength that I think is unacceptable. Would I scrimmage with the guys? Yeah why not. Would I risk breaking a leg when some dude falls on it in a game? No. Maybe I won't mind so much if there is a guy on my team who will cancel him out, but I really would rather not take that chance.

Not even counting the big hits (which are oftentimes 'safer'), I've had too many accidents where people fall on my knee/ankle/back/head at weird angles (when I'm not even the target) that if you were a big dude, I'd definitely be in the hospital.

We're talking about Doughboy here

I've seen both of you skate. Nothing against the big guy, but I don't think you have much to worry about.

Hey!

Why ya gotta hurt? :P

(It's sad because it's true.)

I just got a picture in my

I just got a picture in my head of a 6'5" Dude doing booty blocks and hip checks. Please make it stop.

Aww. :(

I love hip checks and booty blocks; they're way more effective than going for the killer hit and flying out of play.

Oh, and I have a lot of ass.

Playing by ladies' rules

Hyper Lynx wrote:

(I can't hit you in the you-know-what)

Actually, if a unisex game is being played using the WFTDA ruleset, a chap's 'family jewels' are a legal target zone, so provided you block 'em with a legal blocking zone, it'd be a legal hit...

that's true

That's true. And if I'm not mistaken ... going off of the drawings provided in the rule book itself ... pelvis to pelvis contact is also legal. Hard to pull off though when skating in the right direction though.

;)

hollywood!

Aitchbee wrote:

You might want to hear from G. No Evil and other Puget Sound Outcasts about what happens Sunday mornings when big, strong men skate with the poor defenceless women who skate for Oly.

Hollywood is a big ass dude with INCREDIBLE skating skills and I'm pretty sure he hasn't secretly been killing Oly skaters

Girls are better than boys....

Fawkes wrote:
Aitchbee wrote:

You might want to hear from G. No Evil and other Puget Sound Outcasts about what happens Sunday mornings when big, strong men skate with the poor defenceless women who skate for Oly.

Hollywood is a big ass dude with INCREDIBLE skating skills and I'm pretty sure he hasn't secretly been killing Oly skaters

there I said it. OK.

Funny thing is Hollywood was carried off the track today with a pretty good bump to the knee. Who took him out? Atomatrix.

So today we(Puget Sound Outcast) were actually beating Oly for about 4-5 jams, lol. Then that was it. shut down, just like every other WFTDA team out there. I think we only lost by 50 today. Thats the best we have done, ever. Triangulate that DNN. *snicker*

You can try to figure out how hard a guy hits but you have to make contact first. Plus the speed of the packs are crazy, and pack control is out of this world. I'm 6'2" 245 and I have layed a hit on Tannibal and Atomatrix, but I don't think it was any harder than a Deranged or Psycho Babble hit. Hell I think Licker n Split hits the hardest out of all the Oly girls and she not someone you would think had all that force inside of her.

So yes its Coed Derby of a different nature every Sunday in Oly. Where men are TAUGHT the game of roller derby by some of the best female athletes on skates.

And I am ok with it. Its FUN! Just feel bad for the first Men's team we play. LMAO anyone?

licker

licker excels at everything derby. she's an exceedingly good jammer which helps her hit harder, see better, time better, etc. oly doesn't need jammers so she's boning up on her hitting

Funny

I hope I am not the only one that reads my post as being facetious. But I like the name Super Derby, it goes well with the new video game.

The sport really needs to

The sport really needs to combine into a single entity. Simply because skaters will run out of fake super hero names and then you might get confused when someone talks about Pegasus Superhero scored 100 points, but then you'll be like "no way" Pegasus only scored 10. Oh wait, that was in banked track bout not flat track. If it was all just one track then Pegasus can score 90 points and everyone will know it was legit derby played on a combined banked plus flat track with jumps and a ball to throw at other skaters and knock them down like mario cart. Unless of course, you can reserve your super hero name and use Unicorn for flat track and Pegasus for bank track because bank track goes faster and Pegasuses are faster than Unicorns because they can fly. Somewhere there is room for wolverine claws and mock fighting, i know it.

I don't like derby nick names and the super hero costumes, it distracts from the real sport that is flat track roller derby. There is a reason why banked tracked derby evolved into a WWF mess, it's because it sucks. Move on, flat track is a real sport played by real people.

Real people have real nicknames.

The sport is not in doubt for those that matter. The DIY aesthetic (including laying the track, making the uniforms, and yes, coming up with a derby name) is a major part of the sport. You don't like it? Fine, skate under your birth name and pay a sports uniform manufacturer to make your uniform.

See how easy it is? You have the right to do those things, because that is how the sport is set up -- the freedom to do things your way. I think that's pretty awesome.

"Sport" is an overvalued

"Sport" is an overvalued commodity in today's society.

Fake Names Are Essential

The nicknames are what makes this sport great. Furthermore, other sports use nicknames (Albert Pujols- The Machine, Joltin Joe, etc.) as well so it in no way takes away from the legitimacy of women's flat track roller derby. There is a wealth of arguments to support this claim. First, when a fresh meat skater is still bambi on her skates, a big part of what keeps her around is the belief that when she's on that track she'll have the alter ego of "Pegasus Superhero" to borrow your example. Secondly, I think we all have met the skaters who would never dream of performing in front of a live audience. However, when they strap on the skates, they're no longer Jane Doe from Anytown, USA. They become Pegasus Superhero, newly minted ace jammer for the Suchandsuch Rollergirls and there's no fear in this persona and if you cross her she'll knock you on your... you get the point. It's a necessary persona for a lot of these skaters.

In addition, while this is an ameteur sport, it's not exactly bar league softball. We sell tickets and, just like any sport, we entertain. In turn we develop a fan base unlike many other ameteur sports. This puts us all in a wierd position of being very accessable to our fans. We're not million dollar athletes who can have entourages and security and we're not 2nd base Joe from Moe's Tavern who no one recognizes. We have fans who, if seen in public will recognize you. I'm a referee turned coach and I've been recognized, I could only imagine that skaters get it a lot more often. With that in mind, is it wholly unreasonable that a skater may not want her fans to know her as Jane Doe? Think of the implications if one were to become obsessive. This is a sport with very attractive women who play so that's not out of the realm of possibility. Furthermore, as a ref, I wouldn't dare give my real name. Heaven forbid I box a jammer and that cost them the game. I'd much rather them hate Joeker the ref than Joe the person.

There's many purposes for the names on many levels, and it's evolved with the sport. It may at one time have been like the Ultimate Warrior's name but now it's an identity and possibly a security thing. Just a few points to consider.

Wait... is that gasoline?

I really don't give enough of a damn to ridicule all your points, so I'll stick to the silliest one:

Joeker_MRRG wrote:

I could only imagine that skaters get it a lot more often. With that in mind, is it wholly unreasonable that a skater may not want her fans to know her as Jane Doe? Think of the implications if one were to become obsessive. This is a sport with very attractive women who play so that's not out of the realm of possibility.

There are skaters who have used their real names for years now. Are you implying that they haven't been kidnapped yet because they're ugly? You may have uncovered the best pivot-line taunt against Denver: I'm prettier than you.

?

Firstly, I really don't give a damn about your ridicule.

I'm well aware of skaters who go by their given names, and that's their choice. I'm not implying that there is definitely going to be some incident, and I hope there isn't, obviously. I'm simply relaying it as a point that skaters like to keep a barrier between their derby lives and their real ones. Furthermore, that was a particular point brought up to me by a skater in a past discussion about the useage of real names.

Keep this on the down-low

Shush! I think in Joeker's world, derby is the only sport with attractive women, and its obsessed fans aren't very resourceful. Little does he know that we (er, uh, *they*) easily obtain real names and a whole lotta other info long before anyone realizes we (I mean *they*, gosh, why do I keep doing that?) are getting out of hand.

stripes /= Clark Kent's glasses

Joeker_MRRG wrote:

Furthermore, as a ref, I wouldn't dare give my real name. Heaven forbid I box a jammer and that cost them the game. I'd much rather them hate Joeker the ref than Joe the person.

um, you know that they can tell who you are without the stripes on, right? skate names are all well and good, but accountability doesn't end when the stripes come off.

Correct

You are absolutely correct about accountability not ending when the stripes come off, but I'd greatly perfer that accountability to come within the realm of derby and not when I'm walking down an aisle at Walmart.

There's something a bit more unsettling about someone asking "Are you that Joe ___ guy?" as opposed to "Are you Joeker?"

Paranoid? Maybe, but that's just me. I perfer to keep derby on one side, real life on the other.

WWF Mess

Yikes, why the harsh feelings for the World Wildlife Fund?

I'm just glad that roller derby will always have fake names. That way, people spend more time complaining on the web and less time out slaughtering pandas.

Am I doing it right?

wwf.png

LOL

:D

... until I'm actually paid to do this sport, I should be able to wear/call myself anything I want.

While still following the WFTDA code of conduct of course.

Well stated.

Thank you.

Panda Time!

Love you Marty!

WWF

OK that pic brought the much-needed lols to this quickly devolving thread :)

A humble request.

Gnosis, could I convince you to step down from your position at DNN and instead take control of the rest of the Internet?

And once you've fixed the Internet, could you retire from that and start coding the real world? Because I very, very badly want to see a panda do a moonsault.
Wait, no. Atomic Powerbomb.
Please manipulate reality so that an actual panda performs an Atomic Powerbomb on another actual panda.
Take your time, though. There's no need to half-ass this.

I'm gonna need a shirt of

I'm gonna need a shirt of this real quick-like

here

I'd like to point out that

I'd like to point out that the panda in back appears to be "swerving".

Dirty Marty taught me that one.

WWF

Taking the Bait

The Cheet wrote:

I don't like derby nick names and the super hero costumes, it distracts from the real sport that is flat track roller derby. There is a reason why banked tracked derby evolved into a WWF mess, it's because it sucks. Move on, flat track is a real sport played by real people.

Where's your emoticon saying you're kidding about your silly blanket statement about banked track derby, because you have GOT to be kidding.

Right?

RIGHT?!?!??!?!

Tara Armov
LA Derby Dolls
banked track but no capes