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- Terminal Shorts Silicon, 200-162
- Deep Valley Downs Southern Discomfort, 208-159
- Sin City Torments Arizona, 211-130
- #23 Wasatch Seasons #20 Sacred, 214-148
- Preview: Spring Roll
- Preview: The Big O
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- Spring Roll 2013
Fri May 17 2013 - Mon May 20 2013 - The Big O 2013
Fri May 17 2013 - Mon May 20 2013
» More
Thanks for the update.
Bout #2 Tampa vs Houston:
Lil Bit (not Little A) is responsible for that final 21-point jam that won the game for Tampa.
I hope someone is working on a cure. We all seem to be afflicted from time to time. Fixed, thanks!
To Deevious, Holly, Kangaroo, and Bully: UNLEASH HELL! I will be watching from the safety of my couch.
Your heading for Bout #4 has the scores flippy-flopped. Should be Tampa 297, Brewcity 101.
One of the things I like the least about this rulesset is this stuff here:
"Legal Contact and Maneuvers
Legal Body Parts Used When Blocking:
The upper arms, from the shoulder down to, but not including, the elbows; the upper back, from the shoulder through the shoulder blade; and the hips, pelvis and buttocks."
So no skating backwards and counterclockwise and using your chest to impede someone. One of the most fun, aggressive and skilled parts of "fu get past me" derby. Of course, there is this:
"Skaters may engage another player while skating backwards, provided they are moving in the same direction as the Pack."
But blocking backwards without being able to use your chest is... uh...
"Legal Body Parts to Administer Blocks Against:
The arms, chest, abdomen, upper back (from the shoulder through the shoulder blade), hips, pelvis, thigh and buttocks."
And it's legal to hit someone from behind as long as you hit them in the butt. *sigh* I would be aiming to bend over and ram my shoulder as hard as I could into a butt. You could do some serious damage that way.
"all the free food they can eat (the event organizers are catering)"
For a $500 buy-in to the tournament, they had better be!
Did anybody who paid to see last year's Big Five not feel monetized? I don't blame WFTDA for doing it, they have expenses and even a partial covering of them is better than zero coverage of them.
Oh absolutely, I don't mean to suggest that *anyone* should throw money down a hole. Volunteerism can go a very, very long way, but it does have its limits, after which expenses crop up and need to be covered. However, I wouldn't characterize "covering broadcast costs" as monetization... and of course, we've talked before about other ways to cover costs without constraining accessibility to this important growth tool for the sport.
I know it's so 2005 to care about derby names, but Hurt Vonnegut #Slaughterhouse5. Love it.
You guys are right in this case, I'll have to say. In the bigger picture, it's probably not a good idea for MADE to put what is effectively their debut to the greater derby community behind a paywall. Even though, knowing what I know, it is worth it to pay what they're asking. But since most people don't know what I know, they wouldn't know that it would be worth it, so they might not pay for it. So, yeah.
I get where you guys are coming from. I'd rather this be free than be behind a paywall, too. (I was actually planning on asking them about that and what their future plans are for themselves and in the greater scope of roller derby.) But thing is, I'm so ridiculously excited about seeing going to this that my judgment is admittedly getting clouded.
Hopefully, what I've got planned for everyone for this weekend will make up for that.
Vicorp, in the interest of preventing this conversation from going into a death spiral, I'll make you proposition. Pay for the stream, one day or three. If, after this weekend of watching the games, they can't seem to hold your attention or you're still utterly confused as to what's going on with the rules, I will reimburse you. (Seriously.) At least that way, you can see what you're trying to argue against, before you try to argue against it.
And who knows...I might actually be right for once. :)
I might take that offer up but for two things:
A) my weekend is pretty packed. Work Friday, spending all day Saturday from 9am until 10pm on derby here locally and part of Sunday morning on derby too. So the only time I could see it would be Sunday afternoon and that is just too late in the event to tune in. Plus, hopefully Rose City will be on some a time I can catch them. Gotta love the 3 hour time difference!
B) Since I posted on here I actually have watched a little MADE action courtesy of YouTube. It was MADE's All-Star bout from last year & a couple of others. The video quality wasn't great but good enough. So after 90 minutes of viewing I can say I wouldn't pay to see it online. It's the exact same reason I wouldn't pay to see a USARS tournament either that I didn't have some direct interest in.
But not everyone is going to go look up video online beforehand & at least USARS let people view for free so that they could form their own opinion about it. And I too know people that have tried USARS and liked it. I know others that have no interest in it at all. It's all about choice. MADE chose to make people pay to watch this weekend & now it is up to the audience if they want to do so or not. I really hope they at least break even on this event since I hate to see people put something on and loose money. I do think they would do a much better job of attracting people to check MADE out if they didn't charge for it. Given the interest people might have in seeing the WFTDA mash-up teams that are playing in it they might have made a few more converts than they would the way it is now.
TV doesn't cause people unfamiliar with your sport to suddenly watch. TV is a tool that allows you to take an already existing audience and monetize it, by pulling it together into a single audience and selling ads based on their strength.
Which is also what WFTDA did to it's audience with last year's pay model. Did anybody who paid to see last year's Big Five not feel monetized? I don't blame WFTDA for doing it, they have expenses and even a partial covering of them is better than zero coverage of them.
Consider the circumstances here: A ruleset that "very few know anything about" has attracted $20,000 purse, some of the best WFTDA/MRDA players in the country, and was thisclose to being televised on Pay-Per-View.
All of which is right out of the "I'm a promoter and I can't believe I lucked into this incredibly promotable thing before anyone else" playbook. Pro Roller Derby Invitational was based on *exactly* the same business model, and it fizzled after two or three outings when the financial backer got tired of throwing money down a hole.
This logical fallacy is closely related to "if we get on tv, we'll get a huge audience." That's exactly the opposite of how it works. TV doesn't cause people unfamiliar with your sport to suddenly watch. TV is a tool that allows you to take an already existing audience and monetize it, by pulling it together into a single audience and selling ads based on their strength.
In a 500-channel world, nobody stops clicking for something they aren't already hooked on.
So why is it that so many people are okay with paying for the WFTDA playoffs stream, when there are so many people that don't know anything about roller derby and it would prevent them from being exposed to something new and different? (Not to say you agree or disagree with the WFTDA playoffs pay model.)
Define "so many people"? WFTDA doesn't release viewership info, so all we can do is speculate, but I'd wager their viewership for the 2012 Big 5 isn't half what 2010 had, and (even more speculatively) not a quarter what it could've been if it were both beautiful and free to view.
If the community has already established they'll pay decent money to see a lot of games that aren't guaranteed to be good, I don't see why they can't pony up a few bucks to check out a tournament that, based on what MADE is telling me and what I've seen on my own, has a very good chance of being great from start to finish.
Because not even 1% of the potential audience for the event knows what you know, and perhaps only another 1% will see your endorsement and take your word for it. MADE has been trying like hell to gain profile in the derby communitiy -- what a squandered opportunity, given what paywalls do to any potential audience.
Now take what people felt about the first time they watched the USARS events and then ask them to not only tune in to see a set of bouts using rules they have no real knowledge of (see above) but to also pay for it?
I don't think this is a fair comparison. Last year was literally year zero for USARS, and they pretty much openly admitted as much to me. Their regional events were thrown together at the last minute and were not very good (host leagues ran them, not USARS), the rules were essentially in working beta, and the teams that showed up ranged in talent from Oly to third-tier rec leagues.
It was destined to be a mess at the regional tournaments and it was, as I warned it could be up front and reiterated several times thereafter. Despite this, 99% of the people I talked to at USARS regionals and nationals, including announcers who did nothing but WFTDA up until that point, quickly understood what was going on (moreso at Nationals when things got smoothed out) despite never having seen the ruleset before. On top of that, they all liked it. A lot.
With the Derby Ink, you've got the same style of roller derby that "outsiders" immediately understood and liked a lot. But now, add to that the fact that MADE has been around for more than 4 years, more if you include their pre-history. (It's also starting to go international.) The rules have had seven years to marinate. The teams that are showing up are have world-class players and are established leagues, including those with several years of MADE/BT experience.
For you to say or believe that someone shouldn't pay to watch for a version of roller derby just because they don't have the "knowledge" necessary to do so is pretty silly. There's more to it than that in this case. With *this much talent* playing roller derby against each other in these special circumstances--PARTICULARLY in a ruleset that's just as much about bringing excitement to the fans as it is competition to the skaters--maybe it's actually worth it to try something new on the menu for once.
Vicorp, in the interest of preventing this conversation from going into a death spiral, I'll make you proposition. Pay for the stream, one day or three. If, after this weekend of watching the games, they can't seem to hold your attention or you're still utterly confused as to what's going on with the rules, I will reimburse you. (Seriously.) At least that way, you can see what you're trying to argue against, before you try to argue against it.
And who knows...I might actually be right for once. :)
Sorry Hurt, but the dead horse might just have a buddy by the time this is over...
Consider the circumstances here: A ruleset that "very few know anything about" has attracted $20,000 purse, some of the best WFTDA/MRDA players in the country, and was thisclose to being televised on Pay-Per-View. Those that know about it believe they have something worth checking out. Otherwise, I don't think it would have attracted that kind of attention in the first place.
I based my comment of "very few know anything about" on the fact that locally (and I mean in my state) I know of only one MADE league and according to Derbyroster.com, which MADE's own website (skatemade.org) points to for a partial list of leagues using their rules, I could only find 22 leagues worldwide. Now they did say partial, so lets double that to 44. OK, say there are 44 leagues in the world using MADE rules. Derby Roster lists 1450 leagues worldwide at the moment. Which means most of them are using some set of rules other than MADE. So I think any reasonable person can get why I said that so few know anything about the MADE rules as I am sure most people have never even seen a clip of a MADE bout, much less attended a full length event.
Now I don't know who put up the $20,000 or really "howcloseitreallygottobeingonPPV' but if I was at the level of some of the people rostered, I would sure as heck been down for trying this. Money is a big motivator esp with the winning teams (women's & men's) getting $8,000 a piece. Of course if they have a roster of 14 skaters, that breaks down to about $571 each. That will cover airfare & hotel, so if you win you get a trophy and it isn't costing you too much out of pocket to have a weekend of skating in a tournament. That is something I can get behind. And I can also get behind having an idea and putting a lot on the line to try to make it come true. However, as we have seen in the past, events that offer up a big cash prize in derby have so far not done too well in the modern area. Sure the Pro Derby Invitational was fun to watch but obviously there wasn't enough of a return on it to keep it going past the Glendale event.
I'm flying out to this event because I'm pretty confident it's going to be amazing, and I want to make sure I'm there to experience first-hand. Everyone knows how stingy I am when it comes to (some forms of) roller derby, so take that as you will.
I am sure most people in derby who are fairly active on Facebook, DNN or in bout chats know how you feel about "some forms of derby".
So why is it that so many people are okay with paying for the WFTDA playoffs stream, when there are so many people that don't know anything about roller derby and it would prevent them from being exposed to something new and different? (Not to say you agree or disagree with the WFTDA playoffs pay model.)
If the community has already established they'll pay decent money to see a lot of games that aren't guaranteed to be good, I don't see why they can't pony up a few bucks to check out a tournament that, based on what MADE is telling me and what I've seen on my own, has a very good chance of being great from start to finish.
Do I like paying to see derby? Not really. By and large people are cheap when it comes to paying for things they tend to get for free most of the time. But these days the only way to see the WFTDA playoffs is to pay for them. That is just the reality of things. And yes, there are some bouts where you know it is going to be an absolute smackdown. But then you get others where it is an unexpectedly close game or even an upset. Then when you get past the first few bouts you can watch some (at least to me) good bouts after that. Even some of the placement bouts are fun to watch. Ask anyone who saw last year's Texas vs Atlanta bout if they thought that was worth paying for? Or how about what London did in 2011 at Easterns? Angel City vs Sacred at Westerns? Texas vs Denver at Champs last year? Those were just a few of the great bouts that happened and a lot of people did feel they were worth paying for. A lot of people didn't feel like paying for them and made the choice not to. But at least everyone knew what the rules were and knew what to expect from a WFTDA bout.
Let's take one of your favorites that you like to hold up as a shining example of derby: USARS. Now if people want to play USARS, then fine. If people want to watch a USARS bout, fine. But the first chance a lot of people even had to see a USARS game were the regionals they help last year. Even you will admit that those were just a bit of a train wreck. And if anyone had asked me to pay to watch them I would have politely told them they were misguided to ask. Once the Finals came along things ran a bit smoother but there were still games that were not very good and really the only bout that held any interest for most people was the final where Oly walked over San Diego Roller Derby. I don't know how many people watched the event, but I feel the main reason that it got the viewers it did was there was nothing else to watch online that weekend. So if anyone wanted to see some derby, it was their only choice.
Now take what people felt about the first time they watched the USARS events and then ask them to not only tune in to see a set of bouts using rules they have no real knowledge of (see above) but to also pay for it? That takes a mighty big set of something brass & round. Sure, people would like to see Team Bionic play. Same with Team Wolfpack, Derby Mercs and perhaps even Harm City. But I highly doubt very many of them who either aren't friends with/have family on those teams or are MADE fans are willing to do so. Futher, I am also sure there are going to be at least a couple of other options this weekend for live derby that they can watch online for free.
Honestly, a paywall for an event like this just makes me lose interest even faster than the fact I have never seen a MADE bout before.
Consider the circumstances here: A ruleset that "very few know anything about" has attracted $20,000 purse, some of the best WFTDA/MRDA players in the country, and was thisclose to being televised on Pay-Per-View. Those that know about it believe they have something worth checking out. Otherwise, I don't think it would have attracted that kind of attention in the first place.
I'm flying out to this event because I'm pretty confident it's going to be amazing, and I want to make sure I'm there to experience first-hand. Everyone knows how stingy I am when it comes to (some forms of) roller derby, so take that as you will.
Making people pay to watch an event for a ruleset very few know anything about doesn't seem like a good way to expose them to something new and different.
So why is it that so many people are okay with paying for the WFTDA playoffs stream, when there are so many people that don't know anything about roller derby and it would prevent them from being exposed to something new and different? (Not to say you agree or disagree with the WFTDA playoffs pay model.)
If the community has already established they'll pay decent money to see a lot of games that aren't guaranteed to be good, I don't see why they can't pony up a few bucks to check out a tournament that, based on what MADE is telling me and what I've seen on my own, has a very good chance of being great from start to finish.
Honestly, a paywall for an event like this just makes me lose interest even faster than the fact I have never seen a MADE bout before. Making people pay to watch an event for a ruleset very few know anything about doesn't seem like a good way to expose them to something new and different. Plus, I already pay for an event where I can see amazing mash-up teams (and some with people I never heard of)... It's called RollerCon. At least there I already know I will enjoy the gameplay.
Go Harm City!
It appears to be $10 a day or $25 for the weekend. And that'll probably keep the online crowd to a minimum. But they got bands, tattoo artists as well as roller derby, they should get a decent turnout at Harrisburg.
There's a paywall, I believe.
(Philly steal) I must've missed a step... I love playing in the WFTDA! It's fun to play derby at the highest level possible, which continues to push yourself, your teammates, and the sport itself. Not growing is boring (which is not to say that USARS only teams are not growing). I think derby's just becoming more like any higher level athletic pursuit. Does anyone in our generation(s) even remember the "startup" of another sport? Seriously curious. I would imagine there was a lot of "afterpartying" going on as the fun at first, and gradually things got more serious... which is not to say less fun.
All the fun!
Thanks so much for the recap.
Oh, I'm sure people are. Why shouldn't they be?
Is anyone watching the bank track tournament in Harrisburg, PA this weekend?
yes...leagues can have fun, but considering the level of competition grows from year to year, other leagues want to also compete and raise their own skill level
there are number of leagues who treat this as "fun" and consider it more of a social club, those leagues don't win many games