DNN Interview: Joy Collision on the Arizona / Oly Transfer
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Joy Collision was captain of Team USA at last December's World Cup and skated for Charm City from 2006 to early 2012. Photo: Dave Wood.
On Wednesday evening, derby culture zine Hellarad broke one of the biggest derby stories of the year – in typically sardonic fashion – when they announced that three of roller derby's best known and most talented players, Joy Collision, Atomatrix and Hockey Honey, were transferring from Arizona Roller Derby to the Oly Rollers. The move comes just barely in time for the three to be eligible to play for Oly in next month's Western Region playoffs, as WFTDA rules require skaters to be added to an all-star charter 30 or more days before playing in a sanctioned game. Both Oly and Arizona qualified for the playoffs, with Oly entering as the #4 seed and Arizona at #7.
The roster change considerably upped the ante on Oly's long-controversial use of world-class satellite players. In 2011, they rostered Des Moines, Iowa's Stella Italiana, and added Psycho Babble, DeRanged and Ecko (ex-RMRG) at the beginning of the 2012 season. The addition of Joy, Atomatrix and Hockey Honey right before the transfer deadline was particularly notable as all three had already switched leagues at least once in 2012 – Joy Collision after 7 years with Charm City, Atomatrix after 3 years with Oly and Hockey Honey moving twice from Oly to Arizona and then to non-WFTDA San Diego Roller Derby. [Oly has also added Lindsay LoBlow (ex-Tucson) and Onda Sligh (ex-Slaughter County) to their roster in 2012, although both skaters are currently local.]
Arizona, who had been mired at #13 in the WFTDA West at the end of 2011, rose to #7 with the additional talent over the course of 2012, thus qualifying for the playoffs for the first time since 2007 – but their postseason suddenly looks a lot different, with a significant part of the engine that got them there now departed. Similarly, the balance of power in the 4/5 seed matchup between Oly and Rocky Mountain is suddenly dramatically altered; Oly finished second to Gotham in last year's WFTDA Championships, but has not played against the top tiers of of WFTDA competition since. They do face Minnesota and Texas this weekend.
Reaction on blogs and social networks was explosive, widespread and passionate, with many expressing the opinion that adding non-local skaters at literally the last possible moment for a playoff run was counter to the spirit of derby and a vocal minority defending it as perfectly legal under current WFTDA roster policy. A few hours after the Hellarad post went viral, Atomatrix posted a emotional statement on her Facebook fan page confirming the story.
DNN's Justice Feelgood Marshall interviewed Joy Collision by phone late Wednesday night on the topic. Following is a partial transcript.
DNN: So … you're going to Oly. When did you decide to do that?
Joy Collision: Well, it had been an idea that had been running around for a little bit.
DNN: I guess I'm a little confused because when I was talking to you at Brewhaha [in June] you seemed pretty down with Arizona. I'm curious as to what changed between now and then.
Joy Collision: It's really been a lot of things … I've been pretty nomadic over the past four months … It would be different if it was three years ago and I had all this energy. I feel like at this point in my derby career I'm going to retire at the end of the season. That was sort of the plan. I don't have the energy to put in a team when I'm not even there that much. It was like the whole derby community was like, "What are Joy and Atom and Hockey Honey going to do with this team?" It's a lot of pressure and it just became really stressful. I work in derby, you know, so I don't really get a break from it, it's constant … I was sort of searching for something that would make me feel better. I was talking to friends and they were like, skating's supposed to be fun, and you know, what's really fun is when you're skating without having to worry about training anybody. And I'm like, "That sounds like a great idea." … It was really last minute, it was just one of those things where I was like, "Ok, I'll go for that, if that's on the table, let's do that."
Oly is really stoked to have me and they're very welcoming … I think the Arizona folks, the people I've been talking to, they've been knowing that I've been like "Oh, this is so stressful… it's so hard to be that for a team right now." … I think they understand, most of them understand, and I still have a friendship with them. If I was to quit skating tomorrow, if I was still living in Arizona, I would still try and help their league … If I was going to skate next year, it obviously would have been something where maybe I would have made a different decision. It sort of depends.
DNN: When did you tell Arizona that you were definitely transferring?
Joy Collision: I had been thinking about it for a while but we didn't actually make the decision until this last weekend.
DNN: [Arizona] actually had to take you off of their charter in order for you to be able to go to Oly, correct? Do you know when they did that?
Joy Collision: It was a couple of days ago.
DNN: When you decided you wanted to go to Oly, did you [Oly coach] Eric or [Oly captain] Sassy approach you or did you go to them first?
Joy Collision: Sassy and I didn't really talk until I asked her, "Hey, how would this go if I skated for you?" But I'd had contact with their other skaters before that and talked it out with other people. So it was sort of like a mutual interest.
DNN: When you decided to do this, did you expect there to be a backlash, or did you just not worry about it?
Joy Collision: I feel bad mostly for Arizona because a lot of people are saying "Well, they're going to be so bad off without them," and I feel like that's really insulting … They're going to be fine. They're a really strong, tough team. As far as stuff that's written about us … I can't be stressed about what people who don't even know us think of us. People are just going to have this drama, and then they're going to move on to the next drama. It's a shame that people spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff.
Not to sell myself short, or to sell my team short, but a team always beats a non-team. And we haven't really practiced together. So [joining Oly] is not like guaranteeing anything. All it is is saying, "These people are going to skate together." For me, it's just, I'm going to be able to skate … not having a lot of stress and not having a lot of expectations, just going out there and skating. And that's fun for me ... Honestly I don't see why it would send people off the deep end if a couple people were to come and skate.
DNN: Are you pretty confident that you're retiring at the end of the season?
Joy Collision: I'm definitely going to retire … If I was ever to leave my derby job, I would maybe consider coming back and skating if it felt right. But honestly I've had a pretty full derby career, I've pretty much run the gamut. I've played a lot of derby and I would feel comfortable walking away. That's OK. That's fine with me. I've had a lot of fun. I would still coach it and I'll be involved and I'll volunteer … I'll still be into it. But I don't have to play it. I'll just find another hobby.
DNN: That brings me to something else I wanted to ask about … as far as I know, DeRanged has not actually yet skated for Oly. The last time I saw her skating competitively was at [December 2011's] World Cup. I have heard she is hurt, but do you expect her to be back in time for the playoffs with you guys? Or is she out indefinitely?
Joy Collision: Well, she's been hurt, she's been hurt for awhile.
DNN: Can you say whether or not you expect DeRanged to be playing at Westerns?
Joy Collision: No. She's not going to play.
DNN: And Psycho Babble and Ecko are?
Joy Collision: I believe so.
DNN: Are you playing against Minnesota and Texas this weekend? [Oly plays Minnesota on Saturday and Texas on Sunday].
Joy Collision: No, none of us are. We're all supposed to go and practice with them before [the playoffs] though. They want us to come out there and practice, it's not like just a free ride. Honestly, Sassy was like, "Can you move here for like three months?"
DNN: Do you have any specific plans for how often you'll be able to get up there? Are you planning to stay up there a little bit before Westerns?
Joy Collision: I'll probably go up there for a little while, and you know, they have the rink, so they'll probably arrange a bunch of practices for everybody to come to so we can all practice together I'm sure.
DNN: Ok. I'd like to close out with three yes or no questions. Do you think Arizona will be able to make it to Championships this year?
Joy Collision: I think anything's possible.
DNN: Do you think Arizona would have gone to Championships if you and Atom had stayed?
Joy Collision: I think it's the same possibility as if we're not there. Anything can happen.
DNN: Do you expect Oly to go to Championships this year?
Joy Collision: Yeah -- I hope. I'd like to play in a championship. But there's so many good teams. It's gonna be work. You gotta put the work in.
DNN: Anything else you'd like to say as a response to the backlash on the Internet yesterday?
Joy Collision: I guess I'd just like people to be less judgmental when they don't really know all the stuff that goes on in the lives of people … I can just speak for myself and say that it's not a black and white issue, and it's really hard when people are so judgmental. We're all just trying to have a good time and have fun and skate. It's definitely still my fun time. I'd also really like to say, people shouldn't talk about Arizona in a bad way, cause they're gonna bring it. It makes me upset to hear that people say Arizona's going to do badly or that they're a lowly team. They've been working really hard and I expect them to do really well. I'll like it if people could refrain from talking about Arizona in that way.
Comments
Wherein I put in my personal public two cents.
Joy is a friend of mine. Joy was also a teammate of mine for several years. She speaks the truth. While she is a Goddamn gifted skater who also *works her ass off* and is a positive attribute to any roster, it IS insulting to AZ, Oly, me personally, and a whole host of other folks to intimate that one skater, or even a few skaters, makes or breaks a team. It's also insulting to me that a personal decision is taken as anything other than that.
Last time I checked, EVERYONE skating was a volunteer. Ev. Ry. One. Everyone is making this work for them the best they know how.
Brava LQ! I am in FULL
Brava LQ! I am in FULL agreement with what you have put forth. I really think it is despicable that people are hurling vehemently cruel personal comments at Atom and Joy. Come on people... THIS IS SPORTS!!!! If we continually try to build ourselves up and then slap ourselves down by trying to convince the world that we belong in the world of serious sports competitions but denounce competitive actions such as this we are never going to grow or be taken seriously! Lastly, I agree with LQ that it is a slap in the face of ALL of the other players in derby who strive to be the best player and on the best team. Basically what I am saying is GET OVER IT!!! If you really want to show your ire and your disagreement... beat them!
PS: If you surmise that I only feel this way because Joy is my friend and former teammate you are sadly mistaken. I feel this way because I understand sports in general and I am committed to growing roller derby.
THIS IS SPORTS!!!!
Hmm...
First, I do agree that personal attacks aren't helpful here. I've said a lot about this in various places, but I've done my best to avoid getting personal. To me it's about the team.
I think I'm bent out of shape about this exactly because I'm a big sports fan. It simply doesn't strike me as FAIR to add 3 superstars to your roster after tournament seedings have already been determined.
In a pro sport, this simply can't happen. You can't pull in players from other teams between the end of the regular season and the start of the playoffs. There are trade deadlines and rules in place to keep things fair to everyone involved. If Peyton Manning decides at the end of this season that he wants to go back to the Colts to help them win the Super Bowl this year, he can't just do that. Even if the Broncos and Colts were both OK with it, the league wouldn't allow it.
Derby doesn't have that because players are free to play wherever they choose to play as long as they meet the requirements of the team they wish to play for (no owners, no salaries, etc.). I believe many teams have requirements based on attendance, etc. that would prohibit this sort of thing from happening. Oly apparently does not.
So yeah...I get that Atom wants to finish her career where she started it. She *IS* Oly. On a personal level, I completely get it and I really feel for the situation that she's in. I get that HH and Joy want to have fun and play on a great team. I just think the timing really stinks. :-(
PS: I count HH, Joy, and Atom as probably my 3 closest non-Colorado skater friends...so this is NOT coming from a place of hate. Quite the opposite, actually. :(
Difference
The difference is that yours is a criticism of WFTDA's rules about charters. Many many MANY people are flat out attacking the integrity of the individual skaters for doing what those skaters believe to be in their own best interest (for some sum of personal reasons), even though it's within the rules. These attackers feel that since the rules allow something they don't want the rules to allow, then it's okay to judge Joy, Atom and Honey and say horrible things about them.
This is Sports!!!!
"In a pro sport, this simply can't happen. You can't pull in players from other teams between the end of the regular season and the start of the playoffs. There are trade deadlines and rules in place to keep things fair to everyone involved. If Peyton Manning decides at the end of this season that he wants to go back to the Colts to help them win the Super Bowl this year, he can't just do that. Even if the Broncos and Colts were both OK with it, the league wouldn't allow it."
Well said. You can not do this in Pro Sports. Maybe there is a division amongst us as to whether we want Derby to be Pro.
Actually
It depends on the sport. In baseball there's actually the roster expansion (in August I believe) where teams that are likely to make the post-season go out and recruit top talent from teams that are in the basement. It engenders a similar set of hurt feelings by local fans that lose their star, but it has just become part of the game to consider who will go where.
Beyond that, however, I think the true exploit of this late roster deadline has been missed. I only wish that we'd heard about these transfers a week or so ago. That would have allowed Rocky to make the appropriate chess-move response: Immediately contact a north-central or south-central team (say Madison or Jacksonville) and offer to totally swap rosters. So then this #10 team gets to play Oly in the first round and get a great experience, followed by some really good/competitive bouts against the second tier western teams that they rarely get to play. On the flip side, Rocky (under another name) would buzz-saw through the other region with a pretty good shot and knocking either Windy or Texas out of Champs all together. Somehow I'm betting WFTDA would have a pretty quick rules change ( sorry, "clarification") if that happened.
And just think, the teams would still be playing together. So no one would be upset about the "ringer" transfers if it's the whole team, right?
The actual problem
Yes. This points out that the actual problem is not that some skaters chose to do this, but that it is within the rules of the sport.
It really shows to a special level of immaturity that so many people seem to think that there is some sort of clearly defined unwritten code that everyone should follow. Keep in mind, 'everyone' means everyone in an organization that consists of tens of thousands of people spread out across the entire world.
You don't want this to be allowed? Then fix it. Change the rules. If there is anyone on here who is upset by this and HASN'T expressed their opinion to their nearest WFTDA league (if you aren't a member of a league) or to your league's WFTDA rep (if you are a member of a league) then you have NO room to judge. But this is NOT a problem with the individual people. They made decisions about what is best for them, and that has nothing to do with you. They did it within the rules that YOUR LEAGUE agreed to.
Baseball - NO
It does depend on the sport, but in ALL major sports, there are significant restrictions.
Yes, baseball rosters expand at the end of the season. This expansion usually consists of pulling players up from the minors, not taking them from other teams. And in cases where a player does switch from one team to another, this is only by mutual agreement of the teams involved (i.e. a trade). A playoff-bound team can't just decide to take Reggie Jackson because he's not on a playoff-bound team. Furthermore (thank you wikipedia), if you make a trade in September (the final month before baseball playoffs start), the players you get aren't allow to play in the playoffs! Trades made in August are also significantly restricted.
So no, really...pro sports truly don't allow this sort of thing.
I know derby's not a pro sport. My original comment above was just in response to the notion that if you want derby to be treated like a real sport, you need to be OK with this sort of thing. In fact, the opposite is true IMHO.
Just to add to your point about baseball...
After July 31, trades have to go through a waiver process where teams with worse records have first opportunity to claim players before teams with the better records. So a team like the Yankees can't just trade for a big time player late in the year because all the other teams with worse records will have an opportunity to get that player first. —And once a team claims a player, that's the only team who can trade for him. If a worse team claims the player the Yankees wanted, the Yankees will never have an opportunity to trade for that player.
The idea is to give lower-ranked teams the most opportunity to improve late in the season in order to even out the talent across more teams and keep the pennant race competitive. Teams can also effectively block trades to better teams by putting in claims. The only risk involved is that the team placing the player on waivers can choose to just dump the player on the claiming team, sticking them with an expensive contract that they might not have wanted.
Only in your dreams...and mine too.
Beyond that, however, I think the true exploit of this late roster deadline has been missed. I only wish that we'd heard about these transfers a week or so ago. That would have allowed Rocky to make the appropriate chess-move response: Immediately contact a north-central or south-central team (say Madison or Jacksonville) and offer to totally swap rosters. So then this #10 team gets to play Oly in the first round and get a great experience, followed by some really good/competitive bouts against the second tier western teams that they rarely get to play. On the flip side, Rocky (under another name) would buzz-saw through the other region with a pretty good shot and knocking either Windy or Texas out of Champs all together. Somehow I'm betting WFTDA would have a pretty quick rules change ( sorry, "clarification") if that happened.
And just think, the teams would still be playing together. So no one would be upset about the "ringer" transfers if it's the whole team, right?
As much fun as it would be to see JacksonMoutain weed whack through the SC & let Rockyville get some experience, I can tell you even it it "could" happen the girls here wouldn't do it. They have worked too hard and too long to make it to a Regionals as a team to do something like that. But if any Western team want to come to Florida and play a bout as part of a swing of the state, we would be happy to give them run for their money (on & off the track).
Baseball's deadline is in July
It depends on the sport. In baseball there's actually the roster expansion (in August I believe) where teams that are likely to make the post-season go out and recruit top talent from teams that are in the basement.
Baseball's September roster expansion is generally so that teams can call up their minor league talent to evaluate it for the next year.
Baseball's July trading deadline is well enough in advance of the playoffs that it too wishes to avoid a situation like the one being debated here. There are trades that happen after the deadline through the month of August (but prior to the September call ups) however players traded in that period must pass through waivers.
And let us not forget...
Let us not forget 3 of the original league hoppers, from Pike's Peak/Rocky Mtn.
If anything, this situation has brought the attention to this years-old practice, so now (most likely) the WFTDA will FINALLY address it with a rules change. Live and learn...
Impact skaters
it IS insulting to AZ, Oly, me personally, and a whole host of other folks to intimate that one skater, or even a few skaters, makes or breaks a team.
I like you and I do not wish to insult you, but ... a few skaters can make or break a team.
I mean, if by "make or break" you mean an objective standard such as "win or lose," it is silly to suggest that removing excellent players from any team in any sport will not cause them to lose games they would have otherwise won.
Sticking just to derby examples ... take a look at the relative arcs of Pikes Peak and Rocky Mountain in 2009 (the year the Hayden sisters originally switched leagues to RMRG) ... or the relative arcs of Minnesota, Madison and North Star when Minnesota got Juke Boxx from MRD and Medusa from NSRG ... or, for possibly the most cut and dried example in the history of the sport, the results when Philly and Charm played twice in a three-week span in 2009, with Philly sitting most of their starting line and losing by 75 points the first time and then playing the top 14 the second time and winning by 75 points. For an extremely recent similar example, take a look at Denver / Rose City in May (Denver, missing one key jammer for most of the game, lost by 36) and the same teams playing in July (Rose City, missing three key jammers for the whole game, lost by 229 points.)
Pointing out that rostering extremely good players makes a team more likely to win games is not an insult to anybody's work ethic, team spirit or worth as a human being. It is an acknowledgment of basic reality.
I've said this elsewhere before ... if you *really* think that a few skaters can't make or break a team, suggest to your coach or captain that the 14-skater roster for your next game be picked out of a hat from your charter of 20. See how many times they blink before they can formulate a response.
Nitpick
I don't interpret "make or break" as "win or lose". Any given day lots of factors can affect who wins and loses, from when a power jam happened to a mistake in the scoreboard to minor mistakes in clock management. But making or breaking a team is, in that context, a larger measurement than simply changing the outcome of one game. It's changing a set of easy wins to blowout losses. That's what breaking a team is about.
Arizona's first matchup is against #10 seed, Sacred City. If they lose there, they then face the loser of Oly vs Rocky (How many people will tune in to watch if it's Arizona vs Oly?) and if they lose there they face whoever lost twice out of Angel City, Wasatch, B.A.D. and Rat.
I would only call this a "break" lineup change if all three of those bouts end up with Arizona getting blown out. If any of them are even close, then I'd say they performed within the margins of their seeding. If they win any of those games, then I don't see the argument for them being broken.
2009 is far too long ago to compare anything too.
Math
By the way, if anyone did ever want to do this, there are 38,760 ways to pick 14 skaters out of a 20-skater charter. If any 14 are equally likely, the odds of getting N of your regular 14 are:
14: 1 out of 38,760 = 0.0026%
13: 84 out of 38,760 = 0.22%
12: 1,365 out 38,760 = 3.52%
11: 7,280 out of 38,760 = 18.78%
10: 15,015 out of 38,760 = 38.74%
9: 12,012 out of 38,760 = 30.99%
8: 3,003 out of 38,760 = 7.75%
This gives an average of 9.8 of your standard 14, or 4.2 of your standard skaters missing.
How about a local example to AZRD
In Dec, 2011 before Atom, HH & Joy joined AZRD they played Tucson. The bout was 203-158 for Tucson. The teams met again in April, 2012 and the score was 292-44 AZRD. I think it was safe to say that those 3 coming to the team "made" Arizona earlier this year.
This example went both ways
Tucson also lost a lot of their veteran skaters in 2012, so this example was a double whammy.
a few players making a team
I don't know if you can rule out. For example, this season we lost one of our top scorers. Is that going to have an affect in upcoming bouts? I'm going to guess "yes." Do one... two... three of the nation's top skaters make or break a team? I guess you would have to check the records before they joined the team, after they joined the team, and now when they left. That comparison will speak volumes.
Like Kevin Garnett, anything is possible!
Do one... two... three of the nation's top skaters make or break a team?
I'd agree with Justice. It's not an insult to suggest adding top flight talent to a roster improves that roster's chance of winning bouts and ultimately a championship. It's also conversely not insulting to suggest that the team that loses top flight talent will lose bouts and ultimately a chance at a championship.
I'm going to take a look at the NBA, mainly because Joy channels Kevin Garnett in this invterview (like Garnett said, "Anything is possible!") ...
The Celtics certainly improved their ability to win games and the whole enchilada when they acquired Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. The Timberwolves, Garnett's former team, did not improve when they lost one of the top forwards in the sport. And the Sonics, after losing Allen, were set on a path to lose games as well as move to Oklahoma City. Where they turned it around, and played for the championship this past season. Losing to ...
The Miami Heat. The ultimate example of adding superstars to win it all. Mike Miller and Shane Battier were bananas in the NBA Finals this year. But it was Lebron James that cemented the win.
And the Cavs are still reeling from The Decision.
Maybe this type of movement doesn't hold true in other team sports? Football (American and/or European)? Hockey? I'd say it does in baseball, but that's already been addressed above.
Peyton Manning
Oh, I think it holds true in American football as well.
Look at the Colts last year. They'd been in the playoffs for NINE seasons in a row. They lose Peyton Manning for a season and suddenly they're a 2-14 team!
...and now that he's with the Broncos, we're going to win the Super Bowl after going 8-8 last year! :-)
Out for #1, and not in the rankings way
"I don't have the energy to put in a team when I'm not even there that much. It was like the whole derby community was like, "What are Joy and Atom and Hockey Honey going to do with this team?" It's a lot of pressure and it just became really stressful. I work in derby, you know, so I don't really get a break from it, it's constant … I was sort of searching for something that would make me feel better."
This is one of the most self-serving things I have ever read. There is always pressure on a skater to contribute to her team. Better skaters often leave a bigger footprint, but this is also voluntary in terms of how much one chooses to participate. Using this logic, she could have withdrawn from the "stressful" responsibilities and simply skated for the league she joined, rather than jumping ship in time for playoffs to do what she says she is doing with Oly. I think all 3 women's decisions are abhorrent, but I would respect it more if they simply called it what it was. However, Atom Wheels has a financial bottom line to protect, so the waterworks and pablum are out in full force.
I don't care of you vote down my comment.
So there.
Also, I'm bringing balls and flamethrowers to Easterns. And naked people. And your mom.
That's so great.
Mom doesn't get out enough. Thanks.
Your Mom
So there.
Also, I'm bringing balls and flamethrowers to Easterns. And naked people. And your mom.
Pretty sure we will be prepping for MRDA nationals that weekend ;-D
Don't make a commitment if
Don't make a commitment if you aren't going to see it all the way through.
If everyone in derby followed this advice,
we wouldn't exist.
Though it's generally a good sentiment.
It's kind of a bummer all around...
Do what you want to do, and it's definitely within the bounds of the rules ... but I do feel sorry for the Oly skaters who played with that team all year and worked to get brought up, and now won't get to play at the big show. They're the ones that should be legitimately shopping for a new team.
Zero
From what I've read here and elsewhere about this, there were open spots on the charter, so nobody is getting bumped. Now, one could argue there might be skaters from within the league that were hoping to get added, but that's a lot of speculation about the innards of a league than I am familiar with to judge.
It may not affect the
It may not affect the charter, but it likely affects the game day roster, or at the very least someone's playing time. You don't add 3 skaters to a game-day roster without serious consequences to someone's playing time.
True
Although who knows. In past Big 5 tournament bouts Oly has had 14 skaters but only skated 10-12 of them any way.
This is incorrect. Skaters
This is incorrect. Skaters got cut.
Correction.
This makes me sound very bitter. Sorry about that. I'm happy with my teams decision and I support them 100% I was one of the girls that got cut because I let myself be an option to cut, I should have worked harder to secure a top 10 spot rather than top 20. I wish them the best of luck at Westerns and Champs, but for now I'm going to kick some butt against Texas and Minnesota this weekend.
Also, please don't "feel sorry for the girls that got cut." Do not feel sorry for me. That actually makes me feel even worse about this. I don't want your pity. If anything this lit a fire under my ass and now I'm going to work even harder.
Thank you.
Upvote
Everyone please upvote the *hell* out of the above comment. I had no idea who Propoganda is, but I'm suddenly a fan.
Do work
That attitude kicks butt, and I agree upvote this. I think you just replaced Tannibal as my favorite Oly Roller, and if you have a fan page I would like the hell out of it.
Hahaha! Shucks guys! Keep an
Hahaha! Shucks guys! Keep an eye out for me next year! :D
I don't have a fan page, but I have a regular ol' Facebook page and I'd love to be your friend. Bernice-Propaganda Pipa
Tannah and her little prego belly and I will be watching Western's rooting for our team together from home.
Propaganda! I love your
Propaganda! I love your attitude :) Although I am curious, how are the other two skaters feeling that were cut?
Other two skaters.
That's something you're going to have to ask them :]
Also, there are 6 charter changes that are allowed in a season. Just because someone isn't on the roster now, doesn't mean that they wont make the next charter if they work hard for it. Same works vice-versa, sometimes people get comfortable on the roster and don't progress as quickly as they used to because they feel like they've "made it."
It's a fight to be on that top 20 roster at all times.
Joy
All I can say is I feel lucky to have skated with Joy briefly since I transferred to AZRD. She provided me with encouragement and a positive attitude. People make decisions on a daily basis that cause ripples, however they shouldn't be personally attacked for it when we don't know all of the personal deciding factors.
Poor Arizona....
yup.
It's an outrage, i tell you!
It's an outrage, i tell you!
Who cares?
Who cares about Atomatrix etc... going back to Oly. Everyone should worry about Onda Sligh transferring to Oly. Last year Oly was lacking in Jammer talent. Stella Italiana, wasn't quite as steller as they hoped. Atomatrix can't jam every jam, at least not against a team like Gotham. That gap is now filled, padded of course with a stronger blocking line now that Ecko and DeRanged are confirmed to be playing. Granted most people have no idea who Onda Sligh is, so it's no surprise that no one freaked out with that news.
Didn't know until this article
Didn't know about On Da Sligh until now. Definitely have a well stacked team now, not that they didn't before as rankings show even without top level play. I hope they actually play their full roster soon. Too bad none of their games are ever available outside of being there in person until Regionals. They seem to relish in being the silent but deadly type :D
Onda is the biggest story.
I'm happy that she's going to have a chance to showcase her skills on the big stage, and everyone should be paying much attention to her.
On 'Da Sligh
On 'Da Sligh was very impressive playing against Santa Cruz last year (and I say that as some one with a camera to his face the entire bout).
But On 'Da Sligh playing for Oly is about as controversial as Lulu Lockjaw playing for Bay Area.
And a few photos
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nocklebeast/6071859023/in/set-7215762749845...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nocklebeast/6071836889/in/set-7215762749845...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nocklebeast/6071864377/in/set-7215762749845...
Who cares?
clearly many of us do care, we love derby. Joy posted the DeRanged is not playing from the interview above, so...
"NN: That brings me to something else I wanted to ask about … as far as I know, DeRanged has not actually yet skated for Oly. The last time I saw her skating competitively was at [December 2011's] World Cup. I have heard she is hurt, but do you expect her to be back in time for the playoffs with you guys? Or is she out indefinitely?
Joy Collision: Well, she's been hurt, she's been hurt for awhile.
DNN: Can you say whether or not you expect DeRanged to be playing at Westerns?
Joy Collision: No. She's not going to play.
DNN: And Psycho Babble and Ecko are?
Joy Collision: I believe so."
On 'Da Sligh
I don't know much about her, but I gather she's rather amazing. Has she been skating with Oly all season? I tried to find pictures, but didn't have much luck.
I don't believe she has
She'd been a kick ass skater for Slaughter County, who I think only appears to skate WFTDA all star bouts at the WWS and that Battle for the Coast tourney.
And conveniently jumps now?
and closed bouts
in a westside Santa Cruz warehouse
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nocklebeast/6071859023/in/set-7215762749845...
pictures...
Sorry, I meant that I tried to find pictures of her skating for Oly. Finding pictures of her (and videos of her breaking the long jump record!) was easy. :)
ah, got it.
yeah, in one of Joe Rollerfan's recent Oly photo sets... the only skaters I recognized were Sassy, Scara ToDeath and Heffer. I don't recall seeing Onda Sligh in them.
okay, so it was only last weekend ;-)
but ohmagawd! On 'Da Sligh!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/type2b/7878038980/in/faves-nocklebeast/ligh...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/type2b/7878038586/in/faves-nocklebeast/ligh...
Translation
Don't the kids today say, "Ermagerd! Ernda Slerh!"?
perhaps I should have been more clear
On 'Da Sligh has skated with Slaughter County at other venues than WWS. (Such as in a closed bout in Santa Cruz and against Sacred City in Sacramento last year).
Long jump.
She is also the world record holder in the long jump on roller skates.
On'Da Sligh
I don't know much about her, but I gather she's rather amazing. Has she been skating with Oly all season? I tried to find pictures, but didn't have much luck.
No, On'Da Sligh hasn't skated with Oly in any sanctioned bouts this year. She did skate with them last year in a co-ed charity bout.
On'Da Next Season?
So while we're having this conversation, it seems like the obvious question is this: Is this a permanent transfer, or will she go back to Slaughter County next season?
Regardless, I'm excited to see her skate based on some things I've read (and seen on youtube).
The rest of the world is about to find out...
The rest of the world is about to find out just was amazing On'Da is, and I for one and very pleased to see that. She deserves to have a bigger "stage" on which to perform. Best of luck to you, On'Da!
Truth!
Truth!
Actions speak louder
Yes, everyone has their reasons and excuses for why they do things. But generally speaking, if you have to explain and try to reason with the masses on why you took that course of action, you're probably doing something wrong.
If someone is caught stealing food because they are hungry, they may try to explain how they haven't eaten in 2 days and are starving. But they are still taking something from someone else that doesn't belong to them. There are other ways to eat. There are soup kitchens or offer to sweep the floor for a meal.
There are right ways and wrong ways to get what you want and find happiness. This is the wrong way.
Right way
What would be the right way to skate for the team you've decided you want to skate for?
not skate for 1 team a
not skate for 1 team a season, then at the last possible minute grab a few of your all star buddies and jump ship. If it was 1 skater that had the forlorn of bouts past in brown n blue, then i could kinda see it, but seriously, the number and caliber of skaters returning (some not even that) at such an opportune moment isn't the least bit nefarious to you?
When you look at the situation do the words good sportsmanship come to mind? Probably not.
Or does that not matter when someone wants to win?
Hold up one moment...
Ska Face: I can only assume you are referring to Atomatrix "grabbing a few all star buddies". This is not the case. I know for a fact that Hockey Honey made her decision independent of the other skaters, before they made their decisions to move teams.
Maybe Atomatrix isn't the one
Maybe Atomatrix isn't the one "grabbing a few all star buddies". Maybe it's one of the other transfers. No one knows what transpired exactly, the excuses/reasoning seems vague, and no one is saying how they all came to think that it was a great idea.
Regardless of how the transfers, all 7 of them, came to Oly, the fact is that they created this, they MADE this happen, at a very questionable, but strategic, time.
At least three of those transfers didn't happen last week.
At least three of those transfers didn't happen last week.
Lindsey Loblow
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rollerfan/7462672208/
Pyscho Babble
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rollerfan/7539623222/
Ecko
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rollerfan/7539620424/
On 'Da Sligh
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rollerfan/5853525358/
Some of the transfers to Oly are about as controversial as Bay Area's transfers... that is to say not so much. Did Steely Jan, Lulu Lockjaw, Kristi Yamagotcha and Shannon Dorato all conspired together to skate for Bay Area? How about Rat City's transfers?
Timing, timing, timing
It's all about the timing.
If Atom, Joy, and HH had joined Oly at the beginning of the season, there might be some grumbling about Oly not having an attendance policy like most other leagues, but I don't think it would be quite as ugly as what we have now (there wasn't a whole lot of grumbling about Psycho/Ecko, was there?). But by adding 3 superstars AFTER seedings are set, they've set themselves up as the team worthy of being disliked, booed, etc.
Personally, I'm also curious to see where everyone ends up after the Big 5. Psycho, Atom and Joy (at least) have thrown out the "retirement" word. Will that stick? ...I think Psycho's gunning to match Brett Favre by retiring after every season :-) <3. What about On'da? Will she be back at Slaughter County? She played for them earlier this season -- or is this a permanent change?
It's one thing to transfer to a new team. EVERY team has transfers. It's a very different thing to transfer just for the Big 5.
Sure there was.
(there wasn't a whole lot of grumbling about Psycho/Ecko, was there?)
There was, but not to this extent. I'd say it was more eyerolling than anything else. Moreso certainly than the grumbling about Stella Italiana, but then again, Stella didn't skate with Oly when she had two WFTDA leagues to choose from back home.
Colorado Geography
Yeah, not to this extent. More of an "ugh, that's annoying" than "it's an outrage!" :-)
But quickly in Psycho/Ecko/DeRanged's defense -- assuming you're talking about RMRG and DRD (as the two WFTDA leagues they could have joined), that hour-plus drive (if there's no traffic) from Colorado Springs to Denver is a lot to ask (they did it for 2 years). And I'm guessing playing for Pikes Peak (in Colorado Springs) wasn't an option (burned bridges and whatnot). I suppose Castle Rock or Pueblo might have been options (much more reasonable drives), but I'm not sure they're at a place in their careers where playing for the #34 or #35 team in the West is very appealing.
Anyway, I still hate that they're playing for Oly...just pointing out that I think their options in Colorado were less appealing than it might seem at first glance (kudos for Rocky Mountain and Denver for having attendance requirements).
Yes and no.
I was actually referring to Stella Italiana, who was a member of the Des Moines Derby Dames (and owner of the rink they play in) when she was skating for Oly last year. When DDD graduated to full WFTDA status, she removed herself from the Oly charter.
There are plenty of skaters on plenty of leagues around the world who have travel hardships, but stick around to make their teams better, not jump to a better team that offers even more travel hardships (but lesser or no attendance requirements).
Go, team.
Actually, I think John Maddening has a key point hidden in there. Once you become such a fantastic skater in your league, you have two options. You can jump ship because you don't feel that you're being tested (skating with better people makes you a better skater) and you want to continue to improve yourself, as option one. Option two is staying and teaching people how to skate like you.
Honestly, maybe it makes me a jerk, but I think that some of the derby superstars have the responsibility of option two. You want this sport to succeed? You have to train people in. You have to train your replacements. And as the best skaters in the sport, that becomes your job. Once you've gotten so good, you're at the very top... you have a responsibility to help other people get better. And that doesn't happen by abandoning them and joining a different league, no matter who you are or where you've come from. Again, the better people you skate with, the better skater you become.
Sure, you can always train harder, longer, watch videos, cough up ridiculous amounts of money for celebrity skater-trainer-coach seminars, or even more ridiculous amounts of money for weekend-long skating camps to get better. But not everyone has these kind of resources. So should derby only belong to the people who have enough money to pay for specialty work and have massive amounts of open time to train for hours every day? If I were independently wealthy or didn't have to put in the time that I do at my job, sure I'd train all of the time. But sadly, I don't have any fancy sponsors and graduate school pays beans and has crap hours. Should I not be allowed to play derby, then?
As per Joy's interview, sure, I think derby should still be fun. If you're not having fun, then don't play. It's that simple. You want to go skate with rockstars and people who are as good or better than you? That is what Team USA and Team Bionic and all of that random side stuff is for. Trading up WFTDA teams right before the championships, no. You didn't help Oly get to the point that they're at right now, but you're sure going to skate your heart out at their tournament bouts and potentially take home a piece of that Hydra in your heart. But... really? You didn't spend the whole season building your team to achieve that trophy... as a team.
I'd rather be part of a crap team that consistently plays together and works together than a bunch of rockstars who see each other on rare occasion, except to come together and blow everyone away.
If you're starving for a Hydra
after a moderate to long career of battling for one, why not jump to the team that gives you the best chance at the last minute if the rules allow it even if it means shortening or eliminating playing time for skaters who have potentially busted their butts on the A and B teams from the beginning of the season to get a shot at significant playing time in the playoffs?
If I'm battling with you in bouts and I'm practicing with you and you leave to play with the opponent I'm working my ass off in practice to battle against, I'm going to have issues (which doesn't mean that others won't).
Very timely pangs of conscience? You mean it's not all about Gotham? Didn't kick in in time to slay Naptown or Sac City?
That being said, I understand it's policy that the WFTDA has been remiss in not tending to and I guess because it is still a volunteer sport and hobby, maybe transfer guidelines don't mean all that much at this time to the WFTDA.
What the hell?
Did you really just equate this to stealing? Last time I checked the ruleset and my local laws I didn't see transferring sports teams as a crime. Do you have some insight to the justice system that the rest of us don't have?
They transferred teams and broke no rules in doing so. It is their decision to make and they made it. Skaters transfer all the time - hell in the pad few months LRG has had around 5 or 6 transfers. It was the new decision for those skater and their old leagues are not getting up in arms about it. They realise it was the best decisions for those skaters for whatever reasons and accepted it.
Until skaters are getting paid to play and are contractually obliged to stay somewhere then there will be other factors they consider important enough to change teams.
Get it over it.
And good luck to both teams in the post-season - I hope you all have a heeluva lotta fun doing something you love.
"Where in the spirit world a**#0|3"
I was equating it to having justifying actions to masses as it is seen at first glance as immoral or unjust. If you want a less "criminal" example...
Relationship between person A & person B. Everthing is all warm and fuzzy. Person B then leaves person A for reasons beyond their control. Everyone is sad. Then person B meets person C (not quite as popular or pretty as person A). They have a few go rounds, then person B says ya know what? You don't make me feel as good as the popular & pretty person I was with, so later. Oh yeah, and I'm taking all my cool friends with me too. (This is what really makes it the dickish move here)
Sure person C* is happy that they had a chance to hang out with person B, but would ultimately wish person B & their friends would stay with them.
This my dear, is completely legal and with the confines of our law set. But person B is acting like a complete douche. Unfortunatley, that is completely legal and I belive the basis of most of the arguments here. If it wasn't legal, none of these conversations would be happening.
This is not a black/white issue. Just as I was trying to equate the "spirit" of the situation w/ my stealing analogy, it is the "spirit" of the charter law that is being violated, not the letter.
*Caveat - I'm completely assuming here that AZ would want these skaters to remain on their team.
**Also I am not calling anyone an a**, it's a movie quote.
Douchey
Labelling something douchey is a matter of opinion.
I don think it is douchey at all and I don't think the charter spirit was violated. There is a deadline for submission, Oly met it, these skaters transferred before that deadline.
I am looking forward to Westerns and watching some awesome derby.
I'm sure everyone feels much better now.
Comment field is required.
I'm a fan of Frisky Sour's
I'm a fan of Frisky Sour's sentiment:
"Well, when it comes down to it, guess what’s at stake for the WFTDA Championship? A gold-painted skate. And maybe a track jacket.
Oooh, a track jacket.
I may be mistaken, but most of us play derby because we love it, and we love our teammates. Winning is a goal that bonds us closer together and makes us work harder. Glory is a byproduct."
There's really got to be more to this game than a 3 day weekend of hot shots playing hot shots and playing with other hot shots.
More than a trophy
There's more to it than the trophy and a track jacket. The Championship is worth thousands of dollars in additional sponsorship and advertising revenue for the winning team, and thousands in potential coaching fees for individuals involved. Plus pride, reputation, and bragging rights.
joy
It was just 4 short months ago that I just uprooted my life, changed my career and moved cities. My first weekend in my new hometown i played a tournament with AZRD, a team i had practiced once with ever. I dont think that my situation is normal for most people that move and transfer derby leagues- the process of courtship was not really there. I know i was happy to feel like i was part of something immediately since i literally knew no one in AZ besides Atom but know what i really should have done was taken a little time to adjust see Phoenix adjust to my new job position and see if i could even fit derby into my life. I went from living in Baltimore, practing massage and having derby as my hobby and fun outlet to making derby my full time gig, and on the side trying to be what AZRD and the derby community wanted me be 'joy'- coach, mentor, star. In reality, 'marisa' is really hanging on by a thread- i am completely riddled with injuries, i just broke up with my GF of 4.5 years and moved away from everyone i know and love for a new opportunity and chance at something different.
Derby has meant alot of different things to me in the past few years- its been a physical challenge, a social club, therapy, vacation...etc... But mainly i always went because it was fun- All of it- even the hard times. This- what is going on right now- is not fun, nor is it a nice break from my day-to day work life. I think at this point in my derby career (if i can call that since i do it for free) all i want is to do just that have fun and not add to my stress level. In retrospect the decision to skate for a team that would demand less of me isnt actually that stress relieving and certainly with the derby community at large being super judgmental looking from the outside in. Maybe i should just retired early (again can i say that cause im doing this for free- i should just call it quitting) that would have been the PC thing to do right? Or is it better to just stick it out and endure even tho it kind of defeats the purpose of me making these decisions in the first place. Everyone seems to know whats best- maybe you are right and i know nothing. But then will you all be there when i need opinions about other stuff in my life- how do i afford pay all that debt have, should i have that knee surgery ive been needing, what do i eat for breakfast... All I ask is that people remember that Julie, Hockey and i are people.. you know with feelings and all... just dont be so quick to judge before you live in my shoes. Also Dont be suprised if i quit and run away and join the circus. That sounds like a lot of fun. :)
Im wondering if Team USA was
Im wondering if Team USA was any fun at all.
Team USA...
Im wondering if Team USA was any fun at all.
For me it was only fun when they played one another. I was NEVER a fan of Teams Awesome, Legit, etc. Except when they were playing against other "super teams."
The circus...
Marisa,
I am sorry that you felt that you had to explain your personal life to derbyland as Julie did. It is your life to lead. In derby, if folks really had serious problems with this there would be a rule about it -- probably will be now ;) You are a fantastic skater and an even more wonderful person. DO NOT LET THIS BULLSHIT GET YOU DOWN!!!! I hate when what should be a non issue pisses me off enough to get me to post to a discussion board. I HATE discussion boards! To be frank, if you joined the circus, that might be more fun and you would still be good at it!!! Ya know Cirque Du Soleil is here in Bmore... you could come home! :)
besos,
Lisa
Joy and Marisa
I know Joy Collision as a sweetheart badass awesome skater who led Team USA to victory. She has traveled the world helping the derby community both on and off the track and has played her heart out for years. As popular (because they are awesome at it) skaters often make decisions based on there personal lives, there derby persona may suffer for it.
Joy everyone is entitled to there own positon on this, but please don't take it personally. They see Joy Collision, as an athlete, a celebrity, at tournaments, from there computer screens. They don't live in your shoes, work side by side with you everyday, if they did, im sure a lot of these posts would have never been made.
But i would also like to point out, as with rules changes, if our skaters didn't go against the grain every now and than we wouldnt be working so hard to perfect the sport, both on and off the derby flat track.
I have seen a lot of great suggestions in this thread about charters and transfering, would anyone have brought this up if something like this didn't happen?
All im saying is, and I know first hand how hard it is, don't take these posts to heart. Just be true to yourself, stay positive and love derby.
Not angry, I guess...
Just disappointed. The individuals are (and should be) absolutely allowed to skate for whoever they like. The league should be allowed to recruit whoever they like.
If I were Arizona, I wouldn't be taking those skaters back, but that's just me.
At the end of the day, I think it's really simple. You should go into the tournaments with the team you were ranked with. WFTDA should change the cutoff to June 30th. This won't prevent some organizations from jockeying for players in the last week of June, and personally, I'm okay with that. Players move around in sports. To me, it only really feels like a ringer event when you're doing it at the last minute.
Team vs. Individuals
http://bankedtracknews.com/index.php/features/122-why-we-dislike-the-rin...
I just woke up so maybe I'm a
I just woke up so maybe I'm a little groggy and missing something but is the crux of her statement "It's really hard to balance my real life and roller derby and I just want to have fun and win?" Yeah? Wow. That's a completely new outlook on roller derby! Last time I checked, nearly all people who play at a very competitive level have a hard time balancing their personal life and their playing. But they stick it out and just don't go the easiest route (aka the oh-so-convenient route which is also the one more likely to win them a championship). You feel like we shouldn't judge you because you don't want to go to practices and be a team member because it's HARD?
Just be real. You wanted to play for a better team but you didn't want to upset your own life. If only we could all be so lucky
And also!
Ok, you were stressed out. But there is a month left til regionals. You couldn't stick it out for one more month? Had to just stop having to be responsible for going to practice for those pesky 30 days? In fact, you would find it LESS stressful on your life to fly up to Oly to attend SOME practices?! Seriously flawed logic and not a good excuse/reason.
This is an issue, but not the biggest issue WFTDA derby faces..
Speaking as a non-skater fan of this sport (and to be fair, a major critic of the current direction of the WFTDA game), I feel that these "moves" are just another "strategy" that will start with one or two teams and then spread like wildfire, just like scrum starts and strollergame.
One of the great aspects of this game has been that the pay-to-play structure of derby leagues and amateur status of the athletes have assured that teams consist of "hometown heroes". These are the people who know, they work at your local grocery stores, they are your neighbors and you honk and wave at them when you see them driving the other way on the street.
As we have already learned, derby teams(leagues) will do everything they can to play precisely within the rules and follow association policies if it works to their advantage and from a business sense, it is the right thing to do. If the WFTDA rules and policies allow changes to the charter up to 30 days before a sanctioned bout/tournament, then there is nothing stopping Oly or any other team from making changes to their charter.
However, while scrum starts, slow packs, stopped packs and last minute transfers are allowed within the letter of the current rules, is it ethical and how does it reflect on fans (e.g. those who have no connections to anyone in the sport)? While the last minute charter updates may actually on its face, enhance the fan experience by the talents of the skaters involved, it does destroy the concept of your local derby team being truly local and puts kind of a pro-league attribute to this growing pay-to-play sport.
While the team I am still loyal to as a fan (AZRD) is being impacted by this, I am concerned by this strategy but I feel that the issues with strollergame is a much bigger PR issue this sport will face. WFTDA needs to decide the direction of this game within their ranks. Are they going to keep this game in the home towns with local heroes or will the "business" give the teams more latitude to win games?
The analyst in me though is questioning if there's some other motivation for Oly to advance and eventually win a National title other than the obvious bragging rights. Perhaps a major pledge from a sponsor? Over the past years, I have been saying nothing but awesome things about Oly and their record. If they have been able to build a program that has been winning games, why import skaters?
To joy
Just keep doing you and fuck the rest
Love you.
Well ...
I was already super excited that my team made Westerns this year. Who knew that it would get even more interesting? CAN'T WAIT.
Growing Pains
Should WFTDA feel transactions such as these be detrimental to the growth and prosperity of our sport, this would be a great opportunity to implement regimented policies regarding trades and transfers (beyond charter submissions deadlines).
This should be taken as an opportunity for development and learning, not castigate the parties involved.
word.
word.
It is the biggest issue, michichan, and you're right.
I was just about to comment about the one thing missing in this entire interview and thread, michichan, but you mentioned the fans. This "loophole" remaining open is just another example of how the fans are far below the lowest priority on the WFTDA priority list. This sort of thing is not allowed to happen in any other sport because they know it would alienate the fans and a sport needs fans to survive and be successful.
I've begun to hear of declining audiences in some of the larger, more successful derby venues. Perhaps the time is arriving soon when the WFTDA derby world will have to confront its dependence on the fans for the survival of the sport, rather than relying on the continued growth and "cool new thing" status to fill all the seats left empty by the folks who never came back after seeing stroller and stopper derby the first time they came.
I would love to see the
I would love to see the statistics of unattached fans (those fans who are not a family member or significant other of a skater and have never skated or volunteered for any league) to see if after seeing a bout or two, if they are returning for more. Like you are pointing out, the current game may be resulting in the decline of "sticky" fans.
I would love to compare these statistics between WFTDA rules leagues and those who play other rulesets (OSDA, MADE, Indy, Renegade, etc.).
I only said that from a fan perspective (especially a first timer), this is not as big compared to strollergame because fans have not had a chance to learn about the inner workings of their local team/league (e.g. they may be unaware of the transfer), but they can judge by their own two eyes that the strollergame play style may not have been what they expected.
WFTDA and their member teams need to wake up and market to the fans. They are slowly doing this but they have a long way to go. Again, leagues/teams need to completely distance themselves from "by the skaters/for the skaters". Leagues/teams that continue to use that mantra are basically saying, "fans.. this is for us, not you, but you can watch it if you want.. then don't bother us until next month's bout."
For the skater, by the skater
We're starting to get a little off-topic here at this point, but...
The "For the skater, by the skater" mantra is core to the values of the participants in roller derby. Fans are an afterthought, and are sometimes even unwanted. Contrary to everything else we label as "indie," roller derby seems to survive in spite of itself.
I truly, truly hope that if
I truly, truly hope that if you and your league feel that way, you are not engaging in any public bouts that charge admission.
Not me
Oh, I'm "just a fan" and so I have no affiliation. I wholeheartedly agree with the previous comments. My comment is in response to the response that I often get that if I'm not involved, no one cares.
Yup.
I couldn't agree more.
A mission statement is your organization's purpose for existing. When your governing philosophy is "by the skater, for the skater" you find yourself in a situation where these kind of actions are not violations of your purpose. The fan experience is not part of the equation. Actions like "TransferGate," noller derby and other skater-centric endeavors alienate fans of the sport.
As for the details of each skater's personal situations and their choices, that's on them. It's not for us to judge each individuals decisions. For me, I care a lot less about one or two individuals and am much more interested in the bigger issues around all of this. That is what is really worth some solid discussion. Questioning what we are doing right now, why we are doing it and what kind of change would improve our future.
Roller derby has died enough times already. We seem hell bent to kill it again. I can't go for that. No can do.
H&O...
...in my head for the rest of the night. Thanks for that.
Sports = winning?
Here's what's throwing me off (ok, a lot of this is throwing me off, but this is the big one).
The skaters in question have essentially given two reasons for their actions:
1. They were no longer having fun in their current derby situation
2. They had personal issues (life, family, jobs, etc) that placed a great deal of stress on them and their derby careers (this kinda ties into the first one. Bottom line: these ladies aren't having the time of their lives)
Fair enough, I sympathize (I've been there, so have plenty of others). It's tough to have real-life obligations stand in the way of the thing you love, which is done purely on a volunteer basis. We all get it, it's the Plight of the Derby Girl, and it happens the world over. These are not isolated incidents (unique, maybe, considering these ladie's careers make their world "all derby, all the time", but def not isolated).
Now, the big thing right now in the derby community is legitimizing the sport, correct? (Rhetorical question, we all know it is, whether it's the Olympics or just making everyone else "get it"). We want outsiders to take a look at our sport as a whole and be all "shit, that really IS a sport in every sense of the word". We want to be taken seriously and be considered "athletes".
So what I'm basically getting from all this is that these skaters love to play derby, but are having issues doing that in their current situation (which is to say, balancing real life and physically attending practices with their local league and putting in the time to volunteer/coach/support a league). So, their solution to this is to transfer to a team that is hundreds of miles away? Meaning, essentially, that they don't have to/won't be attending regular practices prior to competing as a member of this team in regionals and championships. But still get to go to championships. But not have to attend practice 2/3/4 times a week. I'm sure there's more to it, such as Atomatrix wanted to return to her "roots", wanting to end a derby career with a "bang" (ie PROBABLY going to champs with Oly vs. MAYBE going to champs with AZRD..not hating on AZRD, they could totally do it, just speculating on facts/stats here), but we the public are being given these explanations, so I'm gonna run with that.
I repeat: the solution chosen by some of the top derby skaters in the world is to forgo a regular team practice schedule and show up to championships to skate with one of the top derby teams in the world, which will most likely place highly in champs, and therefore represent the highest levels of derby to outsiders and people who would otherwise pass judgement on the legitimacy of derby as a sport.
..Am I the only one who is highly uncomfortable with this? As far as these ladies personal choices go, they really can skate with any team they want, that's not my issue. Neither is the fact that maybe now Oly will place higher in regionals/champs than another team who's had a consistent roster all season.
My issue is that these top skaters, representing derby as a whole to the world, have made these choices that reflect poorly (IMO) on the whole community, as we struggle together for validation of our efforts. To me, for something to be considered a "sport" requires not just atheltic ability, but a certain amount of sports(wo)manship, and a love for the GAME (be it a scrimmage at practice or a championship bout), not just the prizes you get when you win.
Long comment is long.
not to mention
..and this is not even touching on the fact that NO sport would EVER allow this type of move just prior to regional and WORLD championships.
Only because they already
Only because they already have rules in place the govern this sort of thing. Presumably because they've learned that since there's serious money on the line for the owners, people are willing to do anything they can.
True dat
Very true, and in all honesty this is not a surprising thing for the derby community (to me, anyway), considering our history of dissecting and exploiting the rules in a not-so-wholesome way.
What saddens me is that every day derby becomes less of a team athletic endeavor and more of a community of opportunists. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean that you SHOULD. Derby seems to embrace the sort of behavior that other sports governance exists to prevent. Damn shame, if you ask me.
Money
There is real money involved here. Don't some of these skaters make their living from derby?
"most likely place highly in champs"?
I repeat: the solution chosen by some of the top derby skaters in the world is to forgo a regular team practice schedule and show up to championships to skate with one of the top derby teams in the world, which will most likely place highly in champs, and therefore represent the highest levels of derby to outsiders and people who would otherwise pass judgement on the legitimacy of derby as a sport.
I'm not willing to say "most likely" just yet. Their first round opponent is Rocky, and they've got the rest of a strong Western region to contend with as well. Then they need to get a good seeding come champs so that they aren't just facing Gotham round one, for example. (No, I don't think they have a good chance against Gotham this year).
Not quite fait accompli
I'm not willing to say "most likely" just yet. Their first round opponent is Rocky, and they've got the rest of a strong Western region to contend with as well. Then they need to get a good seeding come champs so that they aren't just facing Gotham round one, for example. (No, I don't think they have a good chance against Gotham this year).
Assuming Oly gets to the Championship round, I believe they'll have a chance against Gotham if they do a good job of blocking and controlling the trenches with the additional talent, the penalty prone talent keeps those problems under control, and if they're flexible to making strategic adjustments to Gotham's style.
I'll be very much on.
Mockery!
So the past 24 hours many people have asked me my thoughts on the recent news in the derbyverse. He ya go..
First...As a multi-sport athlete and former athletic director I feel the recent events are bringing the sport two steps backwards. Any league that has a regional and or national competition requires a player to be not only rostered but have played 50% of the season with said team. It does not matter if some one moves they should have completed 50% and play with that league should they qualify.
Second in professional sports there is a trade deadline where any trade made after the deadline the player may not play in the current season. This includes pulling up from a farm team.
Third a national team such as team USA or any sports All Star team is to be comprised of athletes form all over and may not compete as a team in the league except for exhibition.
In conclusion I am sad that people are making a mockery of roller derby and setting our sport back. -Skate Whisperer
Seriously? Let's keep
Seriously? Let's keep improving teams and making better skaters. Gotham needs some good competition.
Congrats and good luck to you, Julie, Joy, and Hockey.
Redistribution of Wealth
I wanna keep improving teams and making better skaters too, but do we do it by centralizing derby wealth on one or a few teams or does the sport benefit by having the fine talent distributed throughout the country potentially creating more of the better teams and skaters and possibly giving Gotham and other Hydra contenders more serious competition than one or two teams?
I may be going off track so to speak, but I'm glad that Teams Bionic and now recently Legit aren't able to compete for a Banked Track championship because it may force some of those skaters to fish or cut bait with respect to the BT game and possibly encourage some of those skaters to join up with relatively new banked track leagues in their neck of the woods which could result in better more talented BT leagues, a better and more competitive slant game overall and make for a more competitive and entertaining than it is now BOTB tourney rather than one or two of the usual suspects in for the trophy.
The Mayans and Christian Right were correct???
Well, who'd a thunk it!
Mel Gibson?
Apocalypto was on last night at about 2 a.m.
Loopholes
There has been some call-to-action to close this "loophole" of allowing transfers a month before playoffs. I think the problem lies in intent and not wanting to punish the good-intentioned. We all know none of us get paid to play, and life happens. People move. It would seem cruel if rules were enforced to prevent quick changes between leagues (like ineligibility for Olympic athletes). If I move across the country for work, how does it benefit anyone if I can't skate for a period of months or years?
If the concern is "the rules allow it", then sadly the rules may have to change to ultimately penalize those who legitimately move and switch leagues mid-season. Which IMO is a shame.
---
I just finished up an ethics class in grad school, and who'd have thought it could come into play here. We looked at the three moral philosophies for decision-making. 1. Consequentialist: what's the best for the majority of society? 2. Deontological: what is your duty, "would you want to live in a world where everyone behaved this way / if you knew nothing about the parties involved, would it be acceptable", 3. Virtue ethics: what sort of person do you want to be perceived to be/is your behavior acceptable in your peer community?
1. Allowing these last minute roster changes benefits a few skaters and a single team, but it can have negative consequences for other opponents and the team the skaters leave (likely a larger pool). From a consequentialist standpoint, bad idea.
2. Let's say it's not Joy, Atom and HH going to Oly, it's a newer skater who just moved to, let's say AZ, for school. Are you going to make her warm the bench for however many months? Does the rule change based on the people involved? We all love to skate and I think we'd want to allow this girl to lace up and not punish her for moving?
3. Peer community: derby. Given the uproar, it sounds like much of the derby community does NOT think this is acceptable behavior.
The different philosophies lead to different conclusions. So how can we be so sure something is right or wrong? Do we need to put rules in place that could have negative consequences just to prevent people from acting in a way deemed "unacceptable" by others? I foresee some.. fan response... to those skaters when they set foot on the track. if they are willing to deal with that, all the power to them.
Rules
I actually don't think it's that bad of an idea to "punish" someone who moves right at the end of the season by not allowing them to participate in a tournament whose seedings were determined before they decide to move. They could still be a member of the league, they just couldn't play in regionals/championships that season. A bummer maybe, but not really a huge deal. I think most leagues would make you earn your spot on the team over time anyway, right?
How about something like this?
"By Date X (say June 30), every team that wants to be considered for the Big 5 must submit an expanded roster of 40 skaters that might possibly be on their Big 5 roster. Skaters may only be submitted by a single team and may not be listed on any other charter. Final 20-skater rosters for regionals must be submitted by August 15 and are limited to players listed on the previously-submitted 40-skater list."
I'm not saying that's the perfect solution, but something along those lines seems like a reasonable way to ensure that this doesn't become a regular thing going forward. And by expanding the size of the submitted roster, you don't punish a B-team player who pushes their way up in the final months of the season. Also, by making these rosters available to the voting teams, they can be taken into consideration when determining tournament seedings.
Agreed
I also don't think it's a big deal. WFTDA rules already make that player warm the bench for at least a month before playing in a bout, so I see no reason to add to it that they are required to wait longer for the Big 5, if that's what the community wants (and judging by the vitriol in here, I think they want that... although many appear to believe it should be self-policed instead of an actual policy for some reason).
Am I correct in thinking a
Am I correct in thinking a lot of people are mad about different things?
Here are the things I've seen people mad about - and they all require different solutions.
- These skaters are terrible people and glory hogs.
- Pro sports don't let this happen.
- Skaters that weren't previously on the roster are now skating at regionals post-seeding.
- Skaters who are not geographically local are allowed to skate and be rostered.
I don't think the skaters are bad people, though we clearly have different attitudes about the sport. I don't really care if derby is a 'real sport', but from what I'm seeing we DO have a 'trade deadline' - there's a charter due date. I am not personally invested in regionals, but as a fan I think this just makes me treat it like a joke. I don't find it exciting that what is effectively a West Region AllStars team is going to compete at Regionals against the teams who (willingly or not) contributed to the All Star team. (But if Gotham beats this 'super team' can we finally tell the West to shut up about Besterns?)
I personally am frustrated with the fact that leagues are willing to take skaters that do not skate with the team and are not available to contribute physically to the team on a regular basis. It's possible these skaters are contributing in remote ways - plenty of off-skates work can be done far away. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
It's a fact that bigger metropolitan areas are likely to end up as something of a derby melting pot - Gotham being a good example - as the cream of the crop goes to where they can compete at the top of their game AND have a job. That is frustrating for smaller teams, but I'm not going to tell people they can't skate for 3 months after they move. But, for the most part, people aren't moving to the shining metropolis that is Olympia, WA. That's the part that bugs me about this whole thing. I don't want to tell someone they can't make the sacrifice to drive 2+ hours to practice every week, but I DO think that being part of a league means you meet SOME kind of (legit) attendance policy. Otherwise you're a pickup team, not a league and shouldn't be in WFTDA. That's what I personally want to see regulated, though it'll be a tough one.
Best of luck to the skaters, I hope they can find the joy they're looking for in derby again. But I won't be cheering for them.
You are absolutely correct
that this current turn of events makes Oly and 3 human beings who transferred an excellent dumping ground for everyone's misplaced anger that has been building since last year's Westerns for a variety of reasons.
Some people can't even articulate what bothers them so much about the sport in the last year, they just know they don't like it. I urge you all to spend some time examining what it is that really upsets you about this sport, and what could solve the things you think are problematic before hurling insults and investing in a lot of venom towards Oly and their roster.
If you can spare the time, maybe also take a look at *your* personal responsibility in what bothers you. Have you spent years ignoring league update emails from your WFTDA reps? Blown off certain areas of the WFTDA forums? Voted without thinking about what the ballot really said? Those of you in WFTDA membership have had about 4 - 5 years to tighten up the charter language, which has, in fact, already gone through at least 2 major changes since it was first written. Changes that were voted on, I am assuming.
It's been 2 years since Oly first demonstrated use of the charter in ways people objected to. Three* years since Duke City did it. Surely someone could have anticipated this, and done something about it if it were SO important...
This decision by one team has opened up a lot of discussion that could be great for the community, but let's please make sure we're placing outrage and anger where it belongs. Just a suggestion.
*edited to correct my bad math, Duke rostered 2 non-New Mexico (longtime former Duke All-Stars) resident skaters who had transferred to non-WFTDA leagues in 2009.
You're 100% right Mercy. And
You're 100% right Mercy. And what I said elsewhere - but now realize I didn't say in this forum - is that this is hardly just an Oly problem and shouldn't be treated as one.
2012 - THE YEAR OF CHANGE (?)
Today's NOllerderby/conga line/sausage play is no different than yesterday's penalty wheel-induced pillow fights. The issue here is Evolution. Ultimately, ALL of this stuff boils down to one thing: the WFTDA needs to decide what sort of organization they REALLY want to grow into. Is it about after parties or the Olympic Games? It is about having some serious fun or is it about being a serious athlete, or is it something in between?
Because as everyone knows, whether they be a player or even just a serious fan, and whether you are speaking of the 2009 Champions or the 2011 Champions, or any other team currently playing in the WFTDA; if there is a way to exploit the rules, it WILL be done.
This after all is an election year. Don't like "TransferGate"? Contact your local WFTDA league rep and make your opinion heard. Affect the social change that you want. YOU have the power to move FORWARD*.
* The preceding announcement is not affiliated with the campaign to re-elect President Obama, and he has not endorsed this message.
Correction:
Mr. Hurt "Accurate Pants" Reynolds reminds me and all of us that it was Westerns 200NINE that Duke chartered/ rostered Dahmer and Miss E, who had both already joined non-WFTDA leagues in other states pre-tourney season, also not in violation of any WFTDA rules. So it's only been between 2-3 years y'all could have directed your outrages at WFTDA policymakers for Duke or Oly's previous use of existing charter rules. Sorry for the confusion.
Didn't Miss E and Dahmer play for Duke in 2008 at Nationals?
I don't actually know anything. I just take photos.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nocklebeast/3049037561/in/set-7215760965345...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nocklebeast/3050774478/in/set-7215760965345...
Yes...
... but I believe they both still lived here, or perhaps Dahmer had *just* moved to San Diego after playing with Duke City for the whole year. Westerns 2009, though, they had definitely both moved elsewhere (but in each case, were not skating with a WFTDA team at the time).
Different situation in a few ways, but it definitely brought the topic (and potential extremes to which it could be taken) into view. And here we are.
I would actually go farther than that...
And make all Big 5 charters (or maybe league rosters) public at least a week prior to rankings voting being due.
I think I did go that far?
And make all Big 5 charters (or maybe league rosters) public at least a week prior to rankings voting being due.
I'm not super-up on the details of the voting process, but my intent was to be saying that those 40-skater rosters would be available on the same date as the last bouts that can be considered for regional tournament rankings. So on June 30th, you basically say "here's our record and here are our players -- judge us!".
(Hmm...just realized that maybe the key word in your post was PUBLIC -- and that would be very awesome. I think every charter should be made public. Why not?!?)
Public rosters
I don't understand why rosters aren't always public (and easily accessible) to begin with. I continue to hope it's simply a resource problem and not some dumb paranoia/secrecy policy. If anyone has any explanations for this I'd love to hear it.
NCAA-ish solution
Didn't the NCAA already come up with a more elegant solution?
Suppose you play _____ball (foot, basket, base...) for Water City State but then decide you'd rather play with your friends or for the coach at Toaster City U.? Great, but you have to sit out a season before suiting up for the Fightin' Toasters.
Reasons for this policy include a lot of derby parallels (protecting program integrity, keeping fan interest, protecting athletic department employees/volunteers, creating a predictable competitive environment for the non-transferring students, etc) as well as some without ready derby parallels (like, promoting the student-athlete ideal/myth, etc)
And transferring student-athletes can appeal to the NCAA directly, which can and does grant exceptions when it comes to issues like family needs, program turmoil (see: Penn State), (or, for less ikky reasons, Green Country Rollergirls), economic needs, injury situations, academic requirements, etc.
Rather than telling leagues what their attendance policy should be, and rather than drawing lines on maps, simply require that a skater may not be listed on a sanctioned roster if they competed in a sanctioned bout for a different member league within the last 30/60/90/120/240/360 days (take your pick). And, of course,define a clear appeal process.
Just throwing up an idea for those readers who are up in arms. GO TOASTERS!
I like solutions
I think that is a good idea. In addition to the driving time limits and minimum attendance requirements that have been mentioned, which I also think are good ideas. Anybody got any more ideas?
not a fan of those ideas.
Really? Driving time limits? Enforcing attendance requirements from above? Heck, why not have the WFTDA collect and publish the last ten years of tax returns of all the sanctioned skaters? No? Okay, maybe just five years?
A "sanctioned roster transfer waiting period" works because it only requires using information which is already being collected, it [ultimately] lets skaters skate where they want, it doesn't require a degree in geography or urban planning, and it doesn't ask any league to change its inner workings.
Such a policy does infringe on individual freedoms in the interest of other organizational values, and that's a trade-off which certainly merits debate. And WFTDA derby already makes that trade in a zillion other ways, of course, both on and off the track ... (such as: you gotta wear a helmet, you can't use abusive language directed at an official, confidentiality agreements, etc.)
Roster Expansion
oops, someone made my point about baseball roster expansion as I was typing.
summary: No, in baseball, you would not see three high level players move from one team to another as the rosters expanded. You would see minor league players come up to get a taste of playing in the big leagues and see some veterans sit and rest up and they get ready for the stretch drive.
More verbal diarreah for the message boards...
#1 Thank you Joy for opening yourself up to the torrent of shittyrain that is and will continue to pelt you from above for sharing with us all.
#3 The 2 most logical camps people are standing in here don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Skaters are people.
WFTDA should make some regulations on transfer skaters to promote better sportswomanship.
#4 I've transferred to another league, gotten a lot of shit for it, and expected it... but you never know how much shit you'll get or how well you'll react to it until people really are talking about you behind your back concerning your personal decisions. I'm sure the 3 skaters who transferred are both relieved to be looking ahead with the announcement behind them, and a little hurt by the backlash. You got this, ladies.
#5 I only wish Joy wouldn't have said that bit about AZ having the same shot of going to nationals with or without these 3 amazing skaters. That's bullshit, but then again, she is a teammate and a target. It takes a lot of balls to be real with the whole world. I do wish AZRD the best of luck, though. I'm sure there's a tremendous fire burning under some asses and that's a helluva good thing.
Stick to the POINT
Nobody is actually concerned about legit transfer skaters. If you MOVED from Arizona (or Colorado or wherever) to LIVE anywhere near'ish to Oly and then joined the team this wouldn't be such a huge issue.
But just like with Stella Italiana last year, the problem everyone has is; these ladies didn't actually transfer to Olympia. They live elsewhere and fly in especially to play with Oly. We are all assuming that OLY has some sort of attendance reqs. that are being waived (at least I am making that assumption because most leagues have attendance reqs.) for these "special cases" because they want that talent.
THAT is the "cringe factor" THAT is the "Ick" that is bothering everyone. It makes everyone raise their eyebrows and cry. "Unfair!"
What if they moved nearish to
What if they moved nearish to Oly but nearer to Rat? What if they moved nearish to Oly but nearer to Rose? Who gets to decide how close is close enough and how close isn't?
More importantly, these are people who want to skate together. They're friends and they want to be teammates. Why does anyone feel like they have the privilege to say "Sorry, I'm going to let these people over here be a team but not you over here, even though both of you have met all the same requirements."
Lord knows it'd be easy enough to draw all sorts of comparisons to various political topics, but the short of it is, those distance restrictions are nothing more than arbitrarily restricting who is and isn't allowed to call each other 'teammate'. Just because it doesn't fit your definition of what a team should be, doesn't mean it's everyone's definition.
Me, I get to decide.
Who gets to decide how close is close enough and how close isn't?
I do. It's within a 2 hour drive. If you have to fly to practice you're not living close enough.
But seriously the issue isn't distance so much as attendance. If a skater had the money to live in Hawaii and fly to NYC for practice every week I don't think people would complain if that skater *was putting in the same effort as every other skater on the team*. The issue is that a team that has been training together all season is having players cut so a few ringers can have a better shot of going to championships and are getting preferential treatment due to their perceived skill level.
I don't believe for a second this is about wanting to skate together, but even if that were the case: so what? Plenty of skaters all over the country want to skate with other skaters, but you don't because you skate with your team, which is the group of people near where you live.
In any case, I agree that this is not the biggest problem with the current ruleset. And even with this news I'm not convinced Oly is going to make championships by throwing together a bunch of better than average players on short notice. I know the Rose roster is still a big question mark so I may revise my predictions when that becomes more clear but I say (in alphabetic order) it will be BAD, Denver, and Rose, 3 teams that have played hard almost all season and whose teamwork is more than the sum of their parts.
Legit transfer skaters?
It is kinda silly to talk about legit transfer skaters if you don't know a league's transfer policy if they even have one. The transfer policy for Oly could be simply that you agree to skate with them. And if so, these transfers are legit.
As for deadlines that do exist all of these skaters transferred within the deadline. It doesn't matter if that was 24 hours or 24 days before. The deadline means you can't do it after that time so as I see it if Oly wants them, they want to go, and all was done before charters had to be submitted than this is legit.
I think the thing that bothers me most about comments regarding transfers, local leagues, and needing rules for all of to are incredibly U.S. biased. The WFTDA is now an international organisation with member leagues all over the world. Unlike a lot of area in the States, many international leagues do not always have options of a local league within driving distance or a high level league nearby. I have concerns that restrictions based on where you live could have a negative impact on WFTDA growth internationally.
I know of several skaters in the UK that have done commutes of more than two hours each way in order to skate with a league for a lot of reasons and if that is what they want to do then more power to them. Isn't two hours about how long the flight is from Phoenix to Olympia.
It is really easy to sit someplace where there are tons of leagues within driving distance and talk about what limits a transfer policy should include. It's quite another to sit here and think about skaters over here that don't have those options because of work, family, location of European WFTDA leagues and hope to hell any rules around this don't include something as ridiculous as living in the same are code that you skate.
beating around the bush
I think everyone is dancing around the real reason why the "ringers" left their respected teams to form a suposed mega team. Could it be that these skaters want to win, and Oly is the only team willing to train hard enough to win? I mean really, compare the hours per day an Oly skater is willing to train vs. your local team. Maybe if arizona was willing to train to the level of Oly, the ringers would not have left. I mean really, if I was a ringer, I wouldn't waste my time moving miserable Olympia Washington for a couple months to maybe get second place again. We all know Gotham is going to win because they write the rules. It's not like they did it for the free derby shwag either. They all ready get free skates and stuff from vendors. Atom doesn't need the advertising for her company since everyone mostly buys her gear anyways. Instead, if I was a ringer would move to LA or Hawaii and be a super star in a weak lineup and party all the time like a proper derby girl with free rent and all on the beach! That would be the smart thing to do. But, something motivates these girls beyond the rest of us, and we can whine and complain all day, but the fact is, they simply train harder, which is why they are better. Yeah, I would like to be a ringer, but I'm not, so I'm going to sit and drink beer an enjoy the awesome skating they will demonstrate probably without any occupy pivot line or butt wiggling bullshit that gets the refs all hot and bothered.
That's the trolling we're all
That's the trolling we're all used to out of The Cheet. I was wondering why the first post wasn't trolly enough... if you had lost your mojo or something, but it appears after a long hiatus it just took you one warmup post.
Yes, the cold fish of reality
Yes, the cold fish of reality does stink. At the same time, I don't see how a smallish town like Oly forming a super team is any worse than a mega city taking advantage of their population and larger market money to form their own respected super team. If only every city had the same opportunities life would be perfect and we would all skate perfectly or not skate at all but at least look pretty doing it.
Working hard to win
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a lot of other teams work really hard too. At the very least, we shouldn't assume that they don't. I really doubt that was a factor in this decision.
They work hard, but not hard
They work hard, but not hard enough. These transfers happen all the time between teams, it just doesn't make news because the skaters involved are off the radar for the most part. Any up and coming team out there would have loved to get these top skaters to transfer over and show them how the game is supposed to be played. Now if those teams were as strong as Oly, it might have made news. But to sit back and squak about how this is unfair or unsportsman like is hypocritical because you know that your team would have done the same thing given the opportunity. At this point we can say Atom and friends moving to AZ was a failed experiment to setup shop and form a championship level team. The move back alone might affect her business negatively because now she is the evil witch of the west who wants to win, heaven forbid. Reality is they are going back home to play for their home team in that stinking redneck miserably cold rainy city knows as Olympia with their tails between their legs. Why deranged, psycho, echo moved to Oly is beyond my comprehension. Maybe they want to play some rink hockey and get good enough to go the world championships one day.
As an experiment, I dare one of the teams who live in holiday lifestyle area to put out an add recruiting ringers for the year. You will get some takers. You will have a strong team. It will make regionals, and that is it. The team needs a certain drive to want to train harder than the other team to win. And right now, no team as a unit trains as hard as Oly.
I was under the impression
I was under the impression that none of the players, including the three ex-Rocky girls, had actually MOVED to Oly. When you keep saying "move" over and over again in your post, are you talking about transferring on to the roster without leaving where they live now (ie: out of state) or did you actually think that all 6 of these players literally packed up and moved?
Train harder?
In the two public statements from Atom and Joy, they both basically said they don't have time to or don't want to practice. Atomatrix said she's been to 15 practices in the last six months. I know they have their personal reasons for this but one of the main reasons people are annoyed is because that skaters who didn't put in the work are getting a prime spot on a better team. Doesn't sound like they did ANYTHING "harder" than the rest of the girls that will play at Westerns.
6 months is a drop of water
6 months is a drop of water in the bucket of 23 years. When people talk about Atom and training "harder" they should be more precise and say train "longer". I don't know the others' secrets to success but I bet Atom's longevity has helped her quite a bit. I can't see the logical strength of any argument that claims she hasn't worked hard.
I guess my dispute was in
I guess my dispute was in regards to this season in particular.
Really, Killer Vee??
"Didn't put in the work"?? I am guessing that you aren't very familiar with Atomatrix's resume. 17-time inline speed World Champion, 3 years of derby (all with Oly) & 3 WFTDA Championship Appearances (including the Championship Title, with Oly in 2009), Derby News Network Jammer of the Year in 2009, and a current member of Team USA Roller Derby. Additionally, she teaches both nationally and internationally in ASA (Atom Skate Academy) Clinics, and donates thousands of dollars worth of Atom gear annually, to a wide variety of skaters (WFTDA, juniors and otherwise) and leagues.
Could her timing on this have been better? Yes, of course. But questioning her work ethic with regard to skating derby or her contributions to the sport is just plain ridiculous.
I'm talking about this season
I'm talking about this season for this playoffs for a team that is competing. I'm not talking about over a lifetime. People always wanna compare derby to pro sports. Athletes on team sports are generally not allowed to play if they don't practice. It's kind of lame to say "well I'm so good for so long that I don't need to train this year as much as the rest of my team." Its just bad form in general.
And now I've said "practice" so many times, I feel like Allen Iverson.
And anyways we're getting off
And anyways we're getting off topic. I was just responding to the poster who said they train harder than anyone else which is simply not true.
Agreed, to a point...
Yes, you are right about how some sports teams don't allow their players to play if they don't practice. That was AZRD's decision to make, and they (apparently) didn't make it and remove her from the roster months ago, for lack of attendance. I understand that Atomatrix and AZRD continue to have a very good relationship, and that she plans to continue to help the team grow when and how she can.
Atomatrix would NEVER say "well, I've been so good for so long that I don't need to train this year as much as the rest of my team". She fully acknowledged the practice situation in her open letter posted on facebook. I think all she wants to do is go "home" and skate. If Oly wants to take her back then it's between her and Oly; no one else.
Yes, her timing certainly could have been better, and should have been, but I don't think anyone can specifically blame HER for wanting to (likely) end her flat track career with the only team/derby family she's ever known.
Can we all just get along/move on now?
Move along? Lol. People
Move along? Lol. People clearly have enough conflicting opinions for this to be looked at further by the wftda and their leagues. Don't confuse passionate discussions about controversial decision or strategies with something it isn't. We all love this sport and sometimes things like this come up and solutions need to happen! This isn't the first time this is happened but a lot of people would like to see it be the last. Let people talk it out as long as it's respectful and civilized!
I couldn't agree more, with everything you just said.
I couldn't agree more, with everything you just said. If anything, this years-old practice FINALLY seems to have stirred up enough interest that the WFTDA will likely (hopefully) finally do something about it (i.e. rules change). I would certainly support that, as a fan of this sport since 2004.
"Respectful and civilized", hear, hear!
Now, please pass the Grey Poupon. . .
Respectful
Move along? Lol. People clearly have enough conflicting opinions for this to be looked at further by the wftda and their leagues.
And here again is where we say, talking about it on the boards doesn't move any closer to this. Talking with your league's WFTDA rep does.
Let people talk it out as long as it's respectful and civilized!
If you think some/most of these comments have been respectful, then I can't imagine what you think of as disrespectful commentary.
Can't we tell our reps how we
Can't we tell our reps how we feel and talk openly on a forum like Dnn? I don't see why people can't roll some ideas over here as well. I'm a part of this community too. Why should the wftda reps and board have all the fun? Second, I did not say all or many of the comments here were respectful. It was more a reminder to myself and maybe hopefully others not to take this too personally. I follow a lot of sports and an active on sports forums. Just because I can't tell Gary Bettman how I feel about an NHL lock out doesn't mean I should sit quietly and ponder only to myself...
WFTDA Leadership
actively follows discussions like these on the internet when they involve lots of fans and otherwise disenfranchised people voicing their desires about WFTDA specifically, in my experience. Discussing these issues here and in other places is some fans' only access to people with enough power to make suggestions that are heard. Whether or not people get blown off as mouthy fanboys is another story, but it can't hurt to have discussion.
Exactly
The number of times I've talked to a WFTDA skater about something I thought should change about WFTDA is in the hundreds. The number of times that skater then actually went and told their rep about what I said? Ha. I seriously doubt I can get to a hand full.
The separation between an average fan and the WFTDA higher-ups (or just getting a post on the WFTDA forum) is pretty much impossible to overcome going through the proper channels. Posting on DNN can be a direct line if the discussion is big enough to get WFTDA's attention. This is sure to be one of those discussions.
(Speaking of that, 5-10 second delay clock on blockers passing the pivot line after the jam starts is the only way to fix starts. It fixes EVERY problem.)
And suddenly
the DNN comments devolve into a House Appropriations Bill, with all kinds of random pleas for peoples personal Pork hidden throughout. *Even more radical and accepting transgender policy, please!*
delay of game penalty
(Speaking of that, 5-10 second delay clock on blockers passing the pivot line after the jam starts is the only way to fix starts. It fixes EVERY problem.)
If such a rule is enacted (pleasepleaseplease), I propose that the penalty be named "lollygagging." I have thoughts on potential hand signals too, but they may not be entirely family-friendly.
That is executive level
That is executive level thinking.
I do agree it has the
I do agree it has the potential to fix problems, but it will need to come with a LOT of provisions. There are lots of special cases like what happens when you start with a no-pack and how do you deal with ALL the ways to keep the beginning of the game from devolving into "hold her behind the pivot line to force the penalty".
I assume these issues are why it hasn't been brought up yet. It seems like it's just shifting the problem elsewhere and rife with potential to make things just as bad or worse.
Starts
So, I know everyone wouldn't agree with this but, to me, what I consider problems are anything that prevent starts to happen like it says they're supposed to in the rulebook (the way they used to happen) where the jammers are released when blockers pass the pivot line. If we start from that ideal, then what happens when you start with a no-pack isn't an issue. Just don't allow no-packs to release jammers (it's no longer needed). That's a rule that doesn't really make sense anyway. Why do you want to release jammers if blockers can't block them? A no-pack situation is the exact opposite time of when you would want to release jammers.
As far as blockers trying to hold opposing blockers behind the pivot line, I just think you make it so there's no blocking before the jammers are released (just like there's no blocking between jams). Under this rule, jammers would be released in 2 seconds the majority of the time anyway so it wouldn't really affect much. Besides, considering the majority of jams anymore start at the jammer line immediately with a no-pack, there's no blocking before jammers are released now.
Like I said, with provisions.
Like I said, with provisions. These are potential solution to some of the potential problems, but probably not the only solutions. Still, the point is that the DoG penalty on its own isn't enough to solve the problem, and it requires more changes to the game than other potential attempts to solve the problem.
Well...
You said "a LOT of provisions", I don't think two is a lot but you might disagree.
More importantly, not solving ALL of the problems with starts still leaves many problems with starts. I haven't seen a single other solution that solves every problem that I wrote about further down the thread. If you have one, that doesn't need any other provisions, let's see it.
Starting on a no-pack would go away with a single whistle anyway and besides, it's a good thing to take away because it's a dumb idea to begin with. No blocking before jammers are released is a very miniscule price to pay in order to literally solve every current problem with starts.
It's true, I did, because I
It's true, I did, because I felt a "No blocking between jam start and jammer whistle" was too big to be accepted by WFTDA members. Every time I've mentioned disallowing the stomping in place (stepping up and down without moving to avoid a stopped block penalty) I've gotten eviscerated by skaters who say it's required because blocking off the line at the start of the whistle requires it and is SO necessary to the game.
And just to be clear, there are lots of things I like about Delay of Game penalty type solutions. I mostly just want to make sure that as many of the potential problems that might arise are thought out and solved before hand, as no solution appears to solve all the problems without adding new and different ones.
For example, I like that teams are (theoretically) able to eat away at their penalty clocks, but I don't like that it can lead to jams that are entirely without any jamming, and I don't want it to be every other jam either. I like that blockers might sometime line up in the front or sometimes line up in the back, although right now you nearly exclusively see just one case.
I diversity of situational strategies is extremely healthy for the sport in my opinion, and any rules changes that remove those strategies should be discouraged unless they are the only way out of a worse problem.
Don't confuse strategy with execution
I diversity of situational strategies is extremely healthy for the sport in my opinion, and any rules changes that remove those strategies should be discouraged unless they are the only way out of a worse problem.
If there are certain strategies you like, that's fine, but they should only be executed in a way that's consistent with the definition of the sport.
Burning penalty time by standing around doing nothing? Bad. Burning penalty time by forcibly holding back the other team from crossing the pivot line by hard blocking? Good.
The strategy is the same, but the execution is different and makes more sense in a roller derby context.
The issue you bring up isn't whether or not strategies would be "removed" from the game. That's silly, because basic derby strategies are the same in all rule sets, they're just executed differently.
The focus should be how we can make these strategies fit within a rule set that's clear, concise, consistent, and fair to both teams, not whether or not changing rules might hypothetically take things away from the game.
There may be things that can stay in the game but require complex or confusing rules to tie up any and all loopholes that may come from it. (For example, people like to suggest a "lap clock" to enforce a minimum lap speed to keep the game moving.) If they can make it work in the game, that's great. But it could also be more trouble than it's worth.
Not confused
I'm not confused by strategy vs execution. Instead I see them as mostly independent. I disagree that standing around and doing nothing is always bad, 100% of the time. It's like an intentional walk in baseball. Sure, it's not interesting from a sports/athleticism point of view, but from a strategic point of view it's a distinct jump in the change of the game. You seem to want a type of baseball that allows the intentional walk, but forces the pitcher to make those balls "still close to the strike zone", which is unnecessary for it to be interesting.
Those moments where the standard method of playing gets turned on its head for a strategic gain can be exciting when they occur at low enough frequencies. It's especially exciting, because there are ways the other team can combat it (forcing the jammers to start by, say, causing a no pack situation).
I know I'll get downvoted to hell for this, but I love those few times when a team fakes a no-pack, then stands up immediately to cause a pack before the jam whistle, then the other team quickly recognizes they're stalling, and seamlessly puts three knees down and skates the fourth forward to kill the attempted penalty kill. This is something I love to occasionally see in a sport, not just skating and hitting.
Everyone who was around for it agrees that speedskating derby is boring, so the goal is to find what bits break up the monotony of that enough to keep it dynamic and exciting.
Trying to see how skinny the
Trying to see how skinny the columns will get is the purest form of outrage.
It's an...
... outrage!
Yes!
Yes!
No!
No!
weeeeeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeeee
how dare you
I mean, really.
This has been done before
Amateurs (smh)
bring
it
O
N
And, I completely agree
I mostly just want to make sure that as many of the potential problems that might arise are thought out and solved before hand, as no solution appears to solve all the problems without adding new and different ones.
And, I completely agree with the first part of that statement. Any potential rule change should be vetted as much as possible. However, there is NOT going to be a perfect solution. It's just impossible. The best solution will have compromises no matter what it is. You just have to think of it as the solution with the highest net gain is the best one. In my opinion, that is far and away the solution that I've been talking about here.
I know some skaters hold sacred the ability to hit off the whistle but I don't see that changing too much, it's just a different whistle. There'd be at least 30 feet between the blockers and jammers so there's plenty of time to get a hit or two in before a blocker has to shift focus to the jammer. Frankly, nobody hits off the whistle anymore anyway. One team is on their knee when the whistle is blown so jammers are released before anyone even moves.
As far as burning penalty time, there's still the ability to do that, a team can try and hold back for 5 or 10 seconds (whatever it ends up being), there's just a limit on how much penalty time they can burn, as there should be. And, again, teams very rarely do that anyway because in situations where a team wants to do that, the other team is taking a knee and automatically starting the jammers. In a lot of ways, this solution actually brings back a lot of strategies that have been forcibly removed from the game by no-pack jam starts.
Banked track has a 3 second
Banked track has a 3 second delay and the jammer whistle is blown. Really, there's no reason not to go to just a single whistle, and put a stake in the heart of delaying a game for penalty box management and to run the clock. I'm really not sure I understand how given the choice, the WFTDA has striven to preserve the strategy of penalty box and time management, both of them non-action strategies, over maintaining action and energy during a game.
Does anyone know if this was even on the radar when the WFTDA started working on the 2013 rules?
Someone mentioned a WFTDA poll of fans, where somehow, despite what all of the fans I know say, they came up with a wholly different conclusion about fan dissatisfaction with the current game. Which was, that fans apparently were satisfied with the game as it is. I haven't seen the poll, I only got this second hand.
Shhh... it's a secret
Does anyone know if this was even on the radar when the WFTDA started working on the 2013 rules?
I suspect if anyone knows if it was or wasn't it would violate the confidentiality agreement they signed to talk about it.
No secret, not confidential,
No secret, not confidential, the results are on their public website. Sometimes you just have to do your homework ;-)
http://wftda.com/news/2012-survey-results
Here's why
Here's why you have to force the skaters forward, over the pivot line. I've seen it put into practice in home league play. It changes nothing other than it makes sure the jam gets started. Blockers can still stand on the jammer line (or the back end of a blocker box if that's created). You do nothing to create a pack speed. Scrum starts still happen on every jam. It only solves two of the MANY problems that starts currently have.
Here are my current problems with starts as I see it:
1. There is no guarantee that jammers will be released in a given jam and even if they are, it could take a very long time.
2. Because of this, it effectively forces every jam to start in a no-pack situation, and as I stated earlier, that's completely stupid and makes no sense.
3. Blockers can line up directly in front of the jammer line creating scrum starts which I personally view as a very ugly version of roller derby. It also forces jammers to back block and blockers to multi-player block, but all those infractions are somehow deemed "no impact/no penalty".
4. Because controlling the back of the pack is a large advantage for various reasons (reasons that should also get a rule change), the team with the bench closest to the jammer line has a very big advantage.
5. Because there is no pack speed forced onto the pack, there is no pack speed. Basically, the speed of the pack is 0 mph. Therefore, if a team actually wants to speed the pack up and the other team wants to stand there, it's the team that speeds up that is at fault for destroying the pack.
6. I don't think I've seen a proper start, the way it's written in the rulebook for almost a year: "The pack begins rolling on a single whistle blast from the Official. Once the rearmost pack skater has crossed the Pivot line, the referee whistles the Jammers to begin their sprint through the pack..." If that's not what starts are supposed to look like, why is it written in the rulebook?
So, like I said, a single whistle or a 3-second delay whistle only solves problems #1 and #2. Forcing blockers to cross the pivot line solves all 6.
Fixing the scrum start
Here's why you have to force the skaters forward, over the pivot line. I've seen it put into practice in home league play. It changes nothing other than it makes sure the jam gets started. Blockers can still stand on the jammer line (or the back end of a blocker box if that's created). You do nothing to create a pack speed. Scrum starts still happen on every jam. It only solves two of the MANY problems that starts currently have.
Here are my current problems with starts as I see it:
1. There is no guarantee that jammers will be released in a given jam and even if they are, it could take a very long time.
2. Because of this, it effectively forces every jam to start in a no-pack situation, and as I stated earlier, that's completely stupid and makes no sense.
3. Blockers can line up directly in front of the jammer line creating scrum starts which I personally view as a very ugly version of roller derby. It also forces jammers to back block and blockers to multi-player block, but all those infractions are somehow deemed "no impact/no penalty".
4. Because controlling the back of the pack is a large advantage for various reasons (reasons that should also get a rule change), the team with the bench closest to the jammer line has a very big advantage.
5. Because there is no pack speed forced onto the pack, there is no pack speed. Basically, the speed of the pack is 0 mph. Therefore, if a team actually wants to speed the pack up and the other team wants to stand there, it's the team that speeds up that is at fault for destroying the pack.
6. I don't think I've seen a proper start, the way it's written in the rulebook for almost a year: "The pack begins rolling on a single whistle blast from the Official. Once the rearmost pack skater has crossed the Pivot line, the referee whistles the Jammers to begin their sprint through the pack..." If that's not what starts are supposed to look like, why is it written in the rulebook?
So, like I said, a single whistle or a 3-second delay whistle only solves problems #1 and #2. Forcing blockers to cross the pivot line solves all 6.
I think any rule change should NOT put more onus on the referees. I've been appalled by the level of refereeing I've encountered this year, both in tournaments and in single serving bouts. Forcing blockers to cross the pivot line puts more onus on referees to impact the game and call new rules correctly. That is unlikely to happen in a remotely timely manner and will lead to so many effed up games as a result. And that will usually result in some team suffering for it, one way or another. I've got something different in mind.
Watching a four wall get backblocked by a jammer is boring. It is. I've sat back and read a lot of thoughts on the scrum starts and how to fix them with rule changes. Not that my opinion matters, but I never see anyone talking about something the sport used to have. A required starting formation. If you're not allowed to start in a four wall, 98% of teams will never be able to form one (and 100% of teams won't be able to form them consistently). I say put in a required starting formation (like we used to have) and then combine that with a 2 second whistle delay AND a box where skaters have to line up in (a new line between the pivot & jammer line), you won't have this scrum start any longer. It will die faster than my popularity. Teams will be lucky to get a pair together by the time the jammers hit the pack, let alone 3 and 4 walls. Just sayin'.
Pack destruction at the start
"5. Because there is no pack speed forced onto the pack, there is no pack speed. Basically, the speed of the pack is 0 mph. Therefore, if a team actually wants to speed the pack up and the other team wants to stand there, it's the team that speeds up that is at fault for destroying the pack."
Not quite true -- this is specifically legislated for:
6.10.2.1.2 - At the start of a jam if one team skates forward and the opposing team remains stationary, upon a No Pack scenario the Jammer start whistle will blow and no penalties for illegally destroying the pack shall be enforced. Skaters and teams are still responsible for immediately reforming a pack
Sorry I didn't make it more
Sorry I didn't make it more clear but I meant after the jammers have been released.
Respectfully disagree
I think any rule change should NOT put more onus on the referees. I've been appalled by the level of refereeing I've encountered this year, both in tournaments and in single serving bouts. Forcing blockers to cross the pivot line puts more onus on referees to impact the game and call new rules correctly. That is unlikely to happen in a remotely timely manner and will lead to so many effed up games as a result. And that will usually result in some team suffering for it, one way or another. I've got something different in mind.
I could be wrong but I don't think this would be more difficult for refs at all. First of all, the number of times they're going to have to make this call and send someone to the box is very small. The only reason a skater would cut it close would be to burn penalty time so obviously they're going to play it safe and not risk 60 seconds of penalty time to burn 5 seconds. Also, they would no longer have to worry about no-pack starts. They'd no longer have to be guesstimating the 10 foot split pack jammer release, there'd be a clear line on the track for when the jammers are released. I'm assuming scrum starts are pretty difficult to ref since there's so many borderline infractions going on, so no more of those.
So, you add one rule which will very very rarely be broken in order to get rid of a bunch of crap and that's harder on refs? I would definitely disagree with that.
Watching a four wall get backblocked by a jammer is boring. It is. I've sat back and read a lot of thoughts on the scrum starts and how to fix them with rule changes. Not that my opinion matters, but I never see anyone talking about something the sport used to have. A required starting formation. If you're not allowed to start in a four wall, 98% of teams will never be able to form one (and 100% of teams won't be able to form them consistently). I say put in a required starting formation (like we used to have) and then combine that with a 2 second whistle delay AND a box where skaters have to line up in (a new line between the pivot & jammer line), you won't have this scrum start any longer. It will die faster than my popularity. Teams will be lucky to get a pair together by the time the jammers hit the pack, let alone 3 and 4 walls. Just sayin'.
I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying here but I always feel like if a rule change is necessary, the best idea is the one that solves the problem while changing the game the least. This solution is like starting from scratch. The delay of game solution is just enforcing something that's ALWAYS been in the WFTDA rulebook.
My reality
I think any rule change should NOT put more onus on the referees. I've been appalled by the level of refereeing I've encountered this year, both in tournaments and in single serving bouts. Forcing blockers to cross the pivot line puts more onus on referees to impact the game and call new rules correctly. That is unlikely to happen in a remotely timely manner and will lead to so many effed up games as a result. And that will usually result in some team suffering for it, one way or another. I've got something different in mind.
I could be wrong but I don't think this would be more difficult for refs at all. First of all, the number of times they're going to have to make this call and send someone to the box is very small. The only reason a skater would cut it close would be to burn penalty time so obviously they're going to play it safe and not risk 60 seconds of penalty time to burn 5 seconds. Also, they would no longer have to worry about no-pack starts. They'd no longer have to be guesstimating the 10 foot split pack jammer release, there'd be a clear line on the track for when the jammers are released. I'm assuming scrum starts are pretty difficult to ref since there's so many borderline infractions going on, so no more of those.
So, you add one rule which will very very rarely be broken in order to get rid of a bunch of crap and that's harder on refs? I would definitely disagree with that.
It will be more difficult because you're making it much more punitive. You're adding a new penalty situation and then we'll have to understand what's the call if the blocker makes contact with her toe stop on the line or was the blocker just in front or was her wheel on the line, etc. But this ref saw your wheel on the other side. Blah, blah blah. This is my reality. My solution takes the refs away from all the same things, but doesn't add anything near as complexly punitive. Line the teams up in a formation within the box and the whistle goes at whatever pre-determined time is deemed reasonable. Unless someone wants to line up out of formation, there are no new penalties introduced.
And for the record, the problem with the scrum starts isn't the kneeling down aspect. It's the sorry-assed four wall.
Watching a four wall get backblocked by a jammer is boring. It is. I've sat back and read a lot of thoughts on the scrum starts and how to fix them with rule changes. Not that my opinion matters, but I never see anyone talking about something the sport used to have. A required starting formation. If you're not allowed to start in a four wall, 98% of teams will never be able to form one (and 100% of teams won't be able to form them consistently). I say put in a required starting formation (like we used to have) and then combine that with a 2 second whistle delay AND a box where skaters have to line up in (a new line between the pivot & jammer line), you won't have this scrum start any longer. It will die faster than my popularity. Teams will be lucky to get a pair together by the time the jammers hit the pack, let alone 3 and 4 walls. Just sayin'.
I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying here but I always feel like if a rule change is necessary, the best idea is the one that solves the problem while changing the game the least. This solution is like starting from scratch. The delay of game solution is just enforcing something that's ALWAYS been in the WFTDA rulebook.
If you like the game, then you don't want to change it. I don't care for the game as it's played now. So I have no objection to changing the starts so as to introduce skill and talent back into them. At the end of the day, the sport is currently more about loopholes and ref calls than anything else. So if you're like me and you want that to change, there needs to be a more substantive change than just adding something more for refs to enforce consistently. You think the pivot line thing will work, but it won't. High level derby is not about playing within the spirit of the rules; it's about circumventing them. My opinion. I believe there needs to be a substantial culture change before you can expect real change. Not that my solution even matters because skaters won't vote anything in unless they want it. Sort of fun watching the inmates create the rules and then find ways to circumvent their own rules isn't it?
The line! is already! ON! the track!
AND a box where skaters have to line up in (a new line between the pivot & jammer line),
I can't remember the last time I saw a track without 10' interval lines marked for pack definition assessments. This part is a one-line rules fix. The simple version of the other half ("one tweet to rule them all") actually *shortens* the ruleset, while markedly improving its clarity.
Can we (they) vote now? Let's vote.
Let's vote
AND a box where skaters have to line up in (a new line between the pivot & jammer line),
I can't remember the last time I saw a track without 10' interval lines marked for pack definition assessments. This part is a one-line rules fix. The simple version of the other half ("one tweet to rule them all") actually *shortens* the ruleset, while markedly improving its clarity.
Can we (they) vote now? Let's vote.
Works for me. Just can't leave out the starting formation. We used to have one and then it disappeared. That is the only thing that's going to deal with the dueling four walls of the present, which I find to be a low brow blocking mindset.
Training != Practice
Perhaps if Oly actually all practiced together all the time, they would have three Hydras rather than just one.
Really
Perhaps if Oly actually all practiced together all the time, they would have three Hydras rather than just one.
You just witnessed Oly again, and you believe that's a fair statement? Being in the Championship game every year is impressive, as well as the highest winning percentage.
Minnesota by the way looked amazing, and super talented. I was impressed, and didn't get a chance to relax that whole bout. The women of that team showed superior teamwork that only efficient practices can do. Great job.
Yup.
Perhaps if Oly actually all practiced together all the time, they would have three Hydras rather than just one.
You just witnessed Oly again, and you believe that's a fair statement?
100%.
Oly is very very good. But teams who spend time together, practicing and working together as a team, improve. They learn to communicate with nothing more than body language and facial expressions, and they know what each other is about to do without even thinking about it.
That's difficult to do when five of your likely fourteen live a thousand miles away from the rest, and are thereby unable to practice with the team.
Like I said, they are very very good.
But they could be even better.
We are now a legitimate sport
Two things make a sport mainstream & legitimate:
1. Teams do what they need to do (within the rule-set) to win.
2. Every idiot (myslef included) goes to whatever media outlet they can to complain about it.
To Joy, Auto & Hockey: Don't let the haters & weiners bring you down. Love this sport & get what you want out of it.
Go Gotham!!
Rev Al Mighty
PS
I love you Marissa!!!!!!
The Duke City difference
I guess you can't hate Oly for trying to be Duke City 2008
We all are...
Maybe I am biased but...
Regarding the 3 skaters that this uproar is about:
One of them is about to retire, and sounds like she doesn't have a lot to lose by finishing out her last season on a new team. What's wrong with trying something different, she's not breaking any rules? (see story above, and see her comment)
Another is returning to the team with which she spent the vast majority of her derby career. read her side of it: https://www.facebook.com/atomatrix
The third is also returning to her former team.
Consider the three individuals that transferred, and what they say about their own decisions. For anyone jumping on the Gotham bandwagon just because of this, consider that they are drawing the top talent from a city of 8 million, while Oly is 46,000 plus a few long-distance commuter skaters.
To play the devil's advocate
To play the devil's advocate here...
(No generalizations are meant to be anything personal).
1. A handful of players can absolutely determine a team's performance in any game but especially when they are world-class players entering or exiting a team that has not maintained championship-level play in years. Saying anything else is well intentioned but naïve almost to the point of condescension, like AZRD are children that need to be defended. I’m sure AZRD was stoked to see their rankings rise with the addition of their transfers and I’m sure they’re bummed at the prospects of not maintaining that rise any more.
2. Or maybe they’re not. Maybe they’ve got the win-win situation that they got to benefit from a rankings boost, but now since the ringers have left everyone else gets more playing time at the tournament they are now qualified for.
3. Speaking of, the only people I feel bad for in this situation are whatever team would have gone to regionals with the same girls they’ve always practiced with, had AZRD’s rankings not been inflated by the Ringer Infusion. These girls got fucked over, whoever they are.
4. This ”loophole” has been known and used for years, but no one ever gave a shit before because it was done by players less noteworthy. Why are people with above-average talent (born from above- average dedication and experience, not superhuman skills) expected to comport themselves differently than everyone else?
5. Yes Joy sounds self-absorbed in the interview. It’s both a jammer affliction and a ringer affliction. It’s not entirely her fault though. I’m sure people did clamor to her begging for her to help them. It’s really hard not to get up your own ass when everyone’s kissing it all of the time. It distorts your perception of reality. It’s a totally normal response. She’ll probably stop acting like she’s such hot shit about as soon as people stop treating her that way and giving her reason to think so. This goes both ways.
6. I guess that’s it. Ringers are people too. If you don’t want them to do something change the rules so they can’t, and if you want them to stop acting like gods stop treating them as such, and practice more so they won’t stand out any more. Unfortunately just about everyone here needs to skate about 15 more years before they’ve punched the time clock as many times as Atom has, but that’s not her problem.
To answer your question #3
Whatever team would have gone to regionals with the same girls they’ve always practiced with, had AZRD’s rankings not been inflated by the Ringer Infusion?
That would be the Silicon Valley Rollergirls from San Jose, CA. Rankings/Tourney Matchups for 2012 Dust Devil were completed before Atomatrix, Joy and HH joined AZRD. IF the matchups were "accurate" at tourney time, SVRG would more than likely have won their bouts, and based on what happened over the rest of this season, would most likely have been #10 in the West and therefore going to West Regionals.
Sucks to be them right now, for sure.
Maybe
Well, maybe. Unless AZRD would've also made it but at a different rank. We can speculate, but we can't know for certain.
Jet City?
Or, how about the actually ranked #11 WFTDA team? For our end of season tournament, Jet City is now going to Spudtown Knockdown hosted by Treasure Valley in lieu of playoffs. And, we're going to have fun and skate some "fuck you get past me" derby.
Am I butthurt about the transfers and not getting into Westerns? A little. Will I get over it? Absolutely. Does WFTDA need to change some of their policies? You bet. But, this sport (and organization) is a work in progress. It has grown rapidly and speed bumps are to be expected. Do I eat, sleep, live roller derby? You bet and I will continue to do so.
I'm still going down to Westerns to spectate and I hope to see some amazing skating out of all of the teams who got voted in. I crave good competition and I have a feeling that the teams there will bring it. And, I'll be rooting for AZRD even louder now because I want them to prove that they're able to skate as a team and win as a team. And, I'm gonna cheer for On'Da really loud. She's from my home town and I got to skate against her in an Oly/Jet scrimmage this last week and her footwork, agility and smile inspire me to work even harder.
xoxo
Pips
One more thing...
People only hate GOOD (i.e., winning) teams or athletes. If the Yankees perennially sucked, there would be no Yankee haters outside of Boston.
Who would have noticed if three very average skaters had joined Oly right before the deadline?
So it's not really about the last minute switch, it's about the fact that they might have the ability to make a team (whatever team they choose) better.
It's fun hating the Yankees,
It's fun hating the Yankees, oops I mean Gotham.
Umm
I think you might be a little confused as to which team reminds you of the Yankees.
not personal... but wait!
I have presented my professional opinion of this in previous posts so I am throwing down the gloves. Derby SHOULD BE business so why the FUCK is it so personal? Healthy debate is great. I am all for trying to advance and solve impasses and be legit as many have professed to want for derby. I think it is rude, nasty, unprofessional and childish to start tearing individuals apart for their decisions and their statements about their positions. We started as a group of strong women trying to start a revolution and build a sport. We have turned into petty fools. For me this IS personal but it is also business... stop talking, start playing and work it out. Oh, and stop insulting people you don't even know. You wouldn't want folks to do that to you...
This is a SPORT
I don't condone personal attacks and that's not what I intend to do in this post (even though it might sound like it).
This is a SPORT. Have you ever paid any attention to sports from the grade school to professional level? People are passionate and they say stupid and insane things. The term "fan" is short for "fanatic". The definition of which is "a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal". If you don't have anyone following your sport that exude those qualities, well then, your sport probably sucks because no one cares.
I understand that some of the personal attacks are coming from fellow skaters however I think a distinction should be made between skaters as skaters and skaters as fans. Skaters are fans. Skaters are probably the biggest fan group of top level derby that there is. Since they're fans, then we know they're fanatics and they say stupid personal things, like FANS OF EVERY SPORT ON THE PLANET DOES.
Here's the thing, I understand getting pissed when someone personally attacks you or a friend. I GET IT. However, this is what you signed up for when you joined a top-level WFTDA team that is competing for championships and CHARGING MONEY for both tickets and the online streams of the games. You're in a business, a SPORTS business. That comes with personal attacks. If people don't see that then they've never paid attention to sports a day in their life. If you can't handle it, stick to your home teams or join a no-name league.
Let it roll off your back. Pro sports athletes do it every day. Ignore the chatter.
Derby is a business.
While the players are not currently paid, there is quite a bit of money that goes through the derby world. Sponsorship money, tickets sales, merchandise sales, rental fees for practice and game spaces, it most definitely is a business If you want to sell tickets, merch, and get bigger and better sponsors, putting the absolute best product on the track is the way to do so. It is not "douchey" it is wanting to win.
Winning is the point of playing. Yes, we all love the camaraderie of one another, and derby makes life long friends, but the business at hand is to be the best. If it isn't, why do we have rankings? or playoffs? or even championships?
Within the confines of the rules, a league accepting players who can help them win is not "douchey" it is what they are doing to try and win. Does it suck for those ladies who may now be passed over for a roster spot? I am sure it does, but that is how sports work. The best players play, and they play to win.
But it's now a BAD business
Is the flat track derby of the past year or so REALLY putting the absolute best product on the track? Is this "product" built to actually grow sponsorship money, ticket sales, merchandise sales, etc.?
The business that derby teams are currently engaging in are short-sighted and, I would argue, not built to foster any sort of engagement or loyalty within a sports community outside of itself. Eventually we will run out of relatives and significant others who will bother to put in the time to understand why "team" is becoming an abstract notion, and for that matter, what the hell is going on on the track - when explaining the definition of a pack and how it's applied in a bout requires a fucking doctorate, you have a huge problem.
But these concerns about growing a business are lost, because it's win now, frankly without regard as to whether it's anything anyone outside of a myopic but vocal minority would consider the "absolute best product."
(It is because I love derby so much that I hate it sometimes.)
Bad business
The good thing is that if it's actually bad business, then it will eventually ruin the leagues who choose that business tactic. This is an instance where free market generates the best results.
Now, if you're worried about the product that's a result of rules, that's different and would not be fixed by free market, other than if it eventually drives all of WFTDA into the ground.
Agreed.
Totally agree about the free market – because I think that for every fan who may be turned off by these tactics, there may be another one (or 2 or 3) who are excited to see what the new or returning skaters bring to the team, and excited to see the even higher level play that results from it.
It’s kinda like the whole Chick-Fil-A controversy… you have super-passionate people on both ends of that debate who will be very outspoken and make their decisions about eating there based on it. But what about the much much larger general population who falls somewhere in the middle? All it did was make all of those people hungry for it (I don’t know about anyone else, but the lines around here got a LOT longer, and I’d bet money it’s just the general public, not the extreme supporters causing that).
That’s where I think most derby fans will fall – there will be a small percentage who feel very strongly either way and will make choices about their future support of a team because of this stuff. But the large majority will debate about it for a little while and then go watch them play again (I’m pretty sure their audience at regionals and championships just doubled regardless of whether those people are for/against them or just curious).
Don't take us all down with it!
Unfortunately in a new sport, this free market approach is not totally accurate. If someone sees some arm of the sport that we are less than proud of (games with jams that don't happen in high level tournaments for instance), they make a judgement on our sport as a whole. If this someone happens to be someone with influence over sponsorship dollars, televised opportunities and other things that many of us feel are necessary to take this sport to the next level, we have a pretty major problem.
I say this from the perspective of a person who has been in that exact situation. I am the General Manager (as my full-time day job) of a league who has aspirations to take the sport to a professional level. It is a major stumbling block for us and if we don't correct it with some quickness we are heading up sh*t's creek. We will have killed it with our shortsightedness. For those who do not care about fans, sponsorship and televised opportunities that may seem like no big deal but those who work day and night (literally) for that cause, it is extremely disheartening.
It'll just get worse...
Y’all think this is a big problem now? Wait and see what happens if WFTDA divides into divisions. Skaters from the lower divisions will start to head for the top division teams. And who can blame them? While now every team has some tiny long-shot chance to make it to Regionals and then Championships…. that chance will be gone. And that will kill a lot of the incentive for top players to stay with their home league - the only hope they'll have of competing at the top level within any reasonable amount of time will be to transfer.
Is that necessarily bad?
Is that necessarily bad? Having those high level skaters go to a 'top division' team means that the home leagues cater to a different kind of skater and present a different kind of appeal. The mid-level skaters have a chance to play more and can train to their level. If they improve beyond what their home league offers, then kudos to them - join a more competitive team a bit further away! (This is how soccer travel teams worked when I used to play, notably they still had practice requirements WITH THE TEAM.) I think there should be a space for folks willing to treat derby like it's their job, and they deserve the accolades! But that doesn't mean that there isn't also room for another level of derby that is still serious, competitive, and deserving of some rink time and maybe even fans. I would prefer this to be explicit, based on divisions, rather than the current mishmash of skill levels and the push and pull of different motivations.
And for the home leagues that 'lose' these skaters, build relationships with the higher level leagues! Scrimmage monthly, invite your ex-leaguemates to help coach and share new skills (ever hear see one, do one, teach one?)! An honest 'I need to go here to get better' might be more accepted if it's a fact of WFTDA divisions and not caged in excuses.
It depends....
I think it can be good OR bad, but that totally depends on the goals of the league or skaters you ask. I don’t think it would be a bad thing IF/WHEN a professional level of derby exists – where people are compensated in some way for playing and therefore it’s a logical expectation that people will move or commute to a location with a pro team that they want to play for (or perhaps eventually they will be recruited or drafted or traded like in traditional pro sports). I think that would be great and very exciting!
But since that isn’t the case, and there is no true “pro” derby now – I don’t like the idea of amateur competitive leagues being divided like that, at least not forced into those divisions by a governing body. Recreational leagues exist for those who want to be less competitive (or not competitive at all), and there are TONS of leagues out there that seem content to stay more local and play tons of fun bouts with other similar leagues. I fully respect that not everyone wants to play for #1 in the world, and these other leagues fill that need IMO. But what about those leagues who are driven to be the best, even though they aren’t quite at that top level yet? What if they want the opportunity to play for the top honors – and would rather risk losing, than be stuck in a division where number “1” doesn’t really mean anything? Maybe they know how hard they’ve worked and how far they’ve come, or maybe they’ve just had 5 legitimate transfers move to their town and it made a huge difference in their level of play, and they don’t want to be held down by rankings from 2 years before.
I’ve always wanted to compete against the best, even if it meant losing, rather than compete against a “lower division”. I would assume that many competitive athletes feel that way. When I was speed skating and working and going to college full time – it was frustrating to compete against the top level sponsored skaters who trained full time (and kicked my butt!!) – but I absolutely am glad I was able to compete with them and see how I measured up, even if it knowing my chances of winning were extremely small. That has far more meaning to me personally than skating again an arbitrary group someone formed of other “average” skaters, and maybe having more chance to “win”.
Actually, since we’re discussing Oly - Oly is a great example of the opportunity to advance that the current structure provides. When Oly came in, they were already at the top level. Should they have had to spend 1-2-3 years working their way through lower divisions before they could compete with comparable teams? Or should they be able to come in and play the already established teams who could compete with them? If you think that they should have to “do their time” in lower divisions… is that then fair to the skaters who actually want to be in those lower divisions and want to play against comparable teams – they would just get stomped by a team like Oly. And there will always be a team or a few in there that will stomp everyone else because they really shouldn’t be there.
Now, if leagues could CHOOSE their division, I would be much more in favor of it. Because that would allow each team to decide what their own goals are and place themselves where they want to be. Then, the teams with aspirations of being #1 could shoot for it… and the teams who really just want to compete at a lower level could choose that as well.
I'm of the opinion that -
I'm of the opinion that - using the current regions anyway - we could have a structure of maybe 6-10 'Divison 1' teams (people better with the complicated algebra that goes into tourney structures would be able to suggest the correct number). Those teams get seeded and go to a regional tournament and a Division 2 has their own tourney. The top 2 from Division 2 get to go to the Division 1 regionals and are seeded at the bottom. Top X number of teams become next year's Div 1. Because I agree, derby changes so fast, a league shouldn't be 'stuck' in a Division it can obliterate after it works its butt off, comes up with a new strategy, or gets some great new talent. So the Division 2 tourney means something - it means your league has the opportunity to compete against the best as well as being the best of your 'level' of league.
As more rec leagues start opening up, then I think they can be considered an alternative, but there aren't many out there. Probably fewer rec leagues than there are 'top tier' WFTDA leagues depending on what you consider top tier - and a much larger skater base that could use them.
Can't. Stop. Watching. Trainwreck.
.
Did it ever occur to anyone
Did it ever occur to anyone this is not a loophole but a deliberate choice. A choice to give the skaters the right to skate in any league they choose, the right to change to another league with as little limitations as possible. Skaters can choose their league for their own reasons, for any reason that is important for them, not because there is a manager who can sell them or exchange them, not because fans or a board of directors or anyone tells them they can only skate for a league in the place where they live.
It’s about giving the skaters the right to make their own decisions. For the skaters by the skaters. I know this is not the case for everyone, but I’m a big fan of this mantra.
"a deliberate choice"
It's a scary thought. I personally hope it wasn't a deliberate choice. If it was, then what's the point? Why bother having quarterly rankings? Why bother associating teams with locations at all? If the intent really is that whoever wants to play together in the Big 5 should just get together and form a team, then why bother with all the other stuff? Just take submissions from potential team captains and let them build up their all-star teams. It would make for an awesome 4ish-team tournament if all of the best players just divided themselves up and went at it. (Most sports would call this an all-star game...something I'd LOVE to see the WFTDA promote!)
The problem isn't that individuals are changing teams. The problem is that the team that was ranked for regionals isn't the same team that's playing in regionals. Again, what was the point in playing regular season games for those seedings?!?
Two different issues
I think you both are addressing two different issues. I think Sir SkateAlot is worried about people who want to restrict skaters to live within X miles of their league.
I disagree
Sir SkateAlot seems to be proposing that having no restrictions on transfers is good policy. Dave Wood points out the obvious end point of that policy.
I think it's worth clarifying positions because they are being misrepresented. I will speak for myself but I believe other people feel the same.
I am not suggesting that players should not be able to transfer to other teams.
I am not suggesting that players should have to live in the area of the team with whom they are playing.
I am not disputing the value of the mantra "for the skaters by the skaters".
I am suggesting that this is a case where "for the skaters by the skaters" cuts both ways as the interests of different skaters is in conflict. The current policy serves skaters who are especially talented in that they can transfer at any time to the team they want and not be held to attendance requirements and other standards required of other skaters. The policy does not serve the skaters who worked hard to get a team into regionals, or championships, who are pushed aside for other skaters, or teams who are not recruiting star players who don't make a tournament because of it. So the question before all of the skaters is does this policy create the sport they want to see. Or would they prefer to see something slightly different.
Let's imagine, we're back in 2011 after westerns with Oly, Rocky, and Rose going to the championships (hosted by Denver). I know Rose players might dislike my using them for this hypothetical but hopefully they will forgive me to make this point. Rose decides that they are going to recruit the best players from Denver, BAD, and Seattle to improve their chances of winning. In response Oly and Rocky decide to respond in kind. In response to that the leagues in other regions do the same, all competing for the best players from other teams who did not make it to championships. So in the end, championships is a tournament of pick-up teams of skaters instead of the teams that played together all season. Granted that a lot of people would like to see some sort of all-star tournament, but is that what skaters want championships to look like? Do people want to the sport to be about the skill and tenacity of the team throughout a season or how much they can spend to get the best players to play for them in a given bout?
Each person, skater or fan, should consider their vision for the sport moving forward.
The REAL problem
This whole situation grows out of the fact that there is a huge vacuum at the top of derby.
The WFTDA is, and always will be, an amateur sports organization. It's bottom-up structure is in many ways its strength, but it also means that it will never be able to act with the kind of speed or efficiency or direction necessary for a professional sport. It is very good at fostering the community that makes up a big slice of the flat-track derby universe, but when you get out to, particularly, the high end of the bell curve, it's not equipped to facilitate that level of play.
It comes as no surprise that the best players want to play with and against the best players. But other team sports have an infrastructure that allows that to happen. A great player in high school goes on to a good college program, or minor league team, and from there to a major league/pro team. Derby is still waiting for that to emerge. There's nowhere for the elite players to go. They just have to keep playing high school sports.
The current friction comes from trying to shoehorn the pro sports paradigm into the WFTDA package. Because they have nowhere else to go, the elite players compete in the WFTDA, and in the process mess up the "typical" derby dynamics. It's like if you get a handful of MLB players coming into a rec softball league. It's an unbalanced and unsustainable situation. Of course, it's even more unbalanced if those MLB players gravitate to just a few teams in the league.
I think it would be better in the long run if the elite skaters to whom it applies were to focus their efforts on building an elite derby league that can position itself to transition into the inevitable professional derby. It's coming eventually, probably within the playing careers of people now skating. It can either be built on something designed by skaters, or it can be imposed by some outside source.
But in the mean time, it would be nice if they would respect the standards of the community in which they've decided to play.
Bob Ross said it best
"Okay, see there. We put all this water down here, and all that's left is a tiny little lake. Tiny little lake. And that's what's so fantastic about painting like this, right in the middle of the painting, you can change your mind. You have total and complete freedom ..." --Bob Ross, 1989
The freedom to do what's best for yourself and your situation is a blessing. If it falls within rules, laws, guidelines, etc, then good on ya. If it doesn't, you'll face the consequences one way or another. Regardless, skaters will skate, haters will hate.
The member leagues of WFTDA will sort it out and will most likely put some sort of protocol in place for transfers and charters. But until then, skate on and enjoy yourselves.
I feel like
we need to salute you or give you some kind of award for being the first DNN commenter to use a Bob Ross quote!
Arizona Press Release
Your Arizona Roller Derby Tent City Terrors have been training hard, looking forward to the 2012 Western Regionals! While the news is true, Atomatrix and Joy Collision have turned in their stripes to skate for the Oly Rollers at the playoffs, your TCT's have the tools and the training to take them on (and take them down!) at the Bay of Reckoning.
AZRD supports all of our skaters in choosing what is best for them when opportunities are presented, and appreciate the contributions that each
one makes to help our league continue to strive for greatness, both on and off the track.
We would like to thank our fans for all the encouragement, praise, and good wishes, and we focus on the fact that committment, perserverance, and dedication are what will make our team successful!
You can help show your support for the ladies in stripes by making a donation to the AZRD Tent City Terrors travel fund!
http://www.gofundme.com/BeatThemAtTheBay
To hear AZRD's interview on it listen to our head coach on Derby Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
Interview with Oly's Coach
Everyone in the derby community should really take 20 minutes and listen to the Derby Deeds interview (http://derbydeeds.com/2012/08/ddp_ep122/#more-2623) with Oly's coach (starts 50 minutes into the show). It's probably the best 20 minutes I've ever heard on DD. It definitely gave me a whole new respect for the way Oly generally approaches the game. I can't recall a derby interview that sounded so much like a SPORTS interview. This is a coach who really looks at this as a sport. He even got through the interview without any f-bombs. How often does THAT happen on Derby Deeds? ;-)
But the part that really got my attention was hearing him come right out and admit that what they're doing is wrong. No, he didn't say that directly. But he did say that he felt there should be a rule in place to prevent teams from doing what they're doing (making huge roster changes after regional seedings have been set) but that since there wasn't a rule in place, they went ahead and did it anyway. I wish everyone involved would be this honest about it -- it's a crap move. Legal, but crap. Don't get me wrong, I think saying you know something is wrong but you're going to do it anyway is still pretty messed up. But it's better than pretending what you're doing is perfectly reasonable and that everyone who has a problem with it is being irrational. (He also admitted to the obvious - that other people's positions on the team were impacted by these moves.)
Finally, it was also interesting to hear him say that this wasn't about beating Gotham. I actually believe that he MAY not view it that way. But I guarantee you he doesn't speak for all 20 members of the charter when it comes to that topic.
Great Interview
I absolutely agree that's a great interview. And yet, I don't agree with your interpretations that you've gotten from reading between the lines. I don't make the connection between his quote:
"The rules that people are talking about possibly, one of them thinking about making a deadline, I think is a great idea. I would love to see a deadline for transfers well before the second quarter rankings come out. I think that would be fantastic, I think that's a fair way to do it. Obviously right now the rules aren't that way; it allows teams to make decisions at the last minute, which we did."
and "hearing him come right out and admit that what they're doing is wrong." I see a difference between 'wrong' and 'how I would prefer it be done', but I guess I may be nitpicking. Still, I think you misrepresent what he said a bit.
I also think you're off on the beating Gotham portion. Yes he's interested to do whatever he can to give his team the best odds, but he put out lots of strong points about why this year's Oly is possibly not even as good as last year's Oly. I'm not changing any bets between Gotham and Oly due to these roster changes.
But yes, I agree people should listen to that interview, and the Hockey Honey one as well.
Gotham
Like I said, I think *HE* may really not view this as being about beating Gotham. I'm just saying that I strongly believe that SOME members of that 20-skater roster are ALL ABOUT beating Gotham after last year. Oly skaters and Rocky skaters really came together on that topic after champs last year (some more literally than others!). That was the only point I was trying to make on that topic.
Personally, I think this version of Oly could definitely give Gotham a run for their money, especially if DeRanged ends up playing. And they have a WAY better chance with Atom, Joy, Hockey and On'Da on their roster than they would have without. I think Tannah will end up playing in Atlanta too (total speculation on my part). They'll be a much better them than 2011 Oly if those two are playing (and maybe even if not -- Psycho, Ecko, and Joy are damn strong players...and I gather On'Da is as well).
The Alliance
Like I said, I think *HE* may really not view this as being about beating Gotham. I'm just saying that I strongly believe that SOME members of that 20-skater roster are ALL ABOUT beating Gotham after last year. Oly skaters and Rocky skaters really came together on that topic after champs last year (some more literally than others!). That was the only point I was trying to make on that topic.
I got the impression from watching the body language of the Oly skaters after last year's defeat to Gotham that it was a very bitter pill to swallow; much more so than the narrow loss to Rocky the year before that. I believe that in their minds, some of the terms under which they lost that bout--pack destruction/non engagement/stopped packs--were not true to the skating spirit of the sport and the Oly Rockies alliance would be the formula that defeats those tactics.
"lets skate forward!" and move forward while we're at it
Of course Oly is slated to do well in the western playoffs this year. Theyve been kicking ass and taking names from the first time their wheels hit the track. Even without the addition of the "hOly trinity" (thank you hellaBAD), they had a pretty solid team all year long and were going back to championships anyhow. Just my opinion, but I dont see three teams in the western bracket able to defeat Oly, thus eliminating them. Anything can happen but, even without the new roster additions, it seemed unlikely that Oly would finish any worse than second place at regionals. Now then, what about championships?
Lets be honest here; Unless a superteam emerges, second place is the new world title. Why? Obvious reasons. Gotham doesnt lose and it literally would take a superteam to bring them down. Before what is being called "transfergate" happened, the best any team in the world could hope for this year was second place. I dont mean to sound like a defeatist here but Gotham isnt an easy team to beat, let alone keep up with. Theyre fast, experienced, and they somehow dont get penalties. By the time the first half of your average Gotham game is over, half of your team is ejected and they are winning by two hundred plus points. Damn. What just happened? So is this an attempt by a group of skaters, most of which have been burned by Gotham in the past, to take them down? Probably and I personally can NOT wait to see the inevitable match up.
All over the country, fans and skaters alike are firing off on the topic of the Oly roster and not entirely without some well thought out opinons but the truth remains that roster changes and satellite skaters are all well within the rules set by WFTDA's head honchos. Whether we like it or not, its totally legal. For now. But did you notice that Gotham isnt complaining? Shouldnt they be upset since this really affects them more than anyone? Instead of cake walking their way to another title, they now have to "try". Something they havent had to do lately, if we are being honest about the teams theyve mopped the floor with. And I DO mean that. Theyve come out and KILLED it every bout because Flattrackstats rewards teams for leaving something like a 400 point defecit on the scoreboard by boosting their rankings. Evidently, for some, a win is still not enough, we have to take all the glory too. 400 for me, none for you.
Heres what I think about Gothams seemingly "mums the word" position on the whole thing. Could it be that it gets awfully lonely at the top? Sure. Look at how willing people have been this week to tear skaters apart and attack their character and moral standing. One is a real lonely number and Oly is feeling it too. Maybe Gotham is, after all, tired of winning every game. Wouldnt you be bored if you never lost anymore? What is there to do now that there is damn near no competition? Maybe they arent saying anything because they actually welcome the challenge they face in this so called superteam Oly roster. If Gotham wins this year, they have the privilege of saying they truly are the best in the world.
Im not picking sides, Im cheering for good derby and Oly, in my opinion, has always been good because of their style of game play. NO MATTER WHO THEY ADD. Some damn good derby. I know I sure as hell am excited to see some "fuck you get past me" derby instead of the BORING stroller derby we've been plagued by. Lets move forward, get excited for championships (now that its gonna be a contest) , and for fuck sake, SKATE FORWARD
We'll Never Know
I think one of the things that sucks the most to me about this thing is that we'll never know how good the Oly that played the 2012 regular season was. As a Rocky Mountain fan, I was *really* (like more than any other bout I've ever watched) looking forward to the opening-round Rocky/Oly game. Watching Rocky Mountain play an Oly team that now had one of my favorite ex-Rocky players (Psycho Babble) on it?!? Yes please! That was to be a matchup of the true #4 and #5 teams in the West and it would have been a hell of a game (and keep in mind, if Rocky did win that game, Oly would be OUT -- no champs for them). But now that game won't happen. Now the "#4" team in the west is very likely the best team in the West (if not the country).
Don't get me wrong -- I'll still be pulling for my team to pull of the upset of the year, but when you add Atom, Joy, Hockey, and On'Da to an already strong team...what looked like a potentially really great game now looks like one that will require EVERYTHING to go right for RMRG (Go Fight Club!!!).
To your larger point, yeah...Gotham was certainly the odds-on favorite to win the Hydra again this year. But don't be too quick to call it a one-horse race. At ECDX, both Denver and Rose made Gotham look considerably more human than the competition they had lined up earlier in the season -- they aren't beating the strong teams by 400 points. Personally, I would have loved to have seen one of those teams take them on again in Atlanta. (In fact, I'm still holding out hope that even if Oly comes out of Westerns at #1 they end up on the same side of the bracket as Gotham and the two have to meet in the semi's while the #2 seed from the west moves on to the finals!)
Head honchos?
WFTDA rules are not created by these Head Honchos you speak of. The members vote the rules we skate by.
A little misleading
The fact that the rules must be ratified by the membership doesn't mean that they are not created by Head Honchos. As a practical matter, members have only the opportunity to vote up or down rules that are presented to them after an opaque drafting process. The only questions that get voted on are the questions that a gatekeeper somewhere chooses to ask.
I'm a member of a WFTDA league, and here's how I perceive the process. Somebody somewhere comes up with a proposal for a rule change or draft rules. The proposal or draft comes down to us. If I have a comment or concern, I tell my WFTDA rep, who tells whoever she interacts with, and I hope that eventually it comes to the attention of the person or committee who actually does the drafting. That sure doesn't FEEL like being involved in crafting the rules. Rules in process can't be discussed and debated in any public forum because of the confidentiality agreement, and they can't be discussed and debated within the WFTDA because that all takes place on a closed forum open only to reps.
I realize that doesn't mean that anybody can't have INPUT, but it does mean that most people cannot participate in the DIALOGUE about it. (A cynical person might fear that maybe a WFTDA rep might not feel the same passion about a topic, especially one she personally disagrees with, and might not advocate strongly for a position at the WFTDA level.)
Yes, ultimately the membership gets to vote on any proposed rule changes, and the results of those votes control. But the "what are we going to vote on" decision is almost more important, and that's a whole other situation.
Things that aren't true
and they somehow dont get penalties.
I saw this and I pulled up the stats on the Gotham bouts since 2011 that I have immediately on hand.
May 20, 2011 - Charm at Gotham
Charm minors - 66
CHarm majors - 15
Gotham minors - 92
Gotham majors - 20
September 17, 2011 - Steel vs Gotham (Eastern Regionals, in Baltimore)
Steel minors - 75
Steel Majors - 17
Gotham minors - 57
Gotham Majors - 11
September 18, 2011 - Philly vs Gotham (Eastern Regionals, in Baltimore)
Philly minors - 83
Philly majors - 15
Gotham minors - 76
Gotham majors - 26
Also, each team had one player ejected due to Gross Misconduct
So, in one out of three of those bouts, Gotham had more minors than their opponent and in two out of three of those bouts, Gotham had more majors than their opponent.
Even if I happened to come across the only two times that this happened, I doubt any data out there would support that Gotham doesn't get penalties.
I'm lazy
Is there any way you can compare jammer trips to the box? This is where I think Gotham may fare better against their opponents. Obviously jammer trips to the box have far more impact.
Rinxter has it all
For e.g. Gotham vs. Oly 2011
Oly
Minors 80
Majors 32
Mins in box 48
Jammer box trips 6
Gotham
Minors 109
Majors 17
Mins in box 37
Jammer box trips 7
Sure
Although these are small numbers, so I don't think they really hold much statistical significance.
Gotham vs Charm - 3 v 3
Gotham vs Steel - 6 v 8
Gotham vs Philly - 4 v 5
Seems opponents fared slightly worse, but I would still be extremely reluctant to say that Gotham receives no penalties.
Skate Don't Hate
:)
Beware - NSFW
http://youtu.be/e7z_ztMxBgk
We're focusing on the wrong transfers
At least Joy, Atomatrix and Hocky Honey are leaving their 2012 leagues in good terms and are likely to go back to them even if just to practice. Everybody seems to be forgetting that PsychoBabble and Ecko are still living in Colorado and only transferred to Oly because their old team hated them (or at least one of them). So why are we making such a big deal about Joy Atomatrix and HH while no one seemed to care when PsychoBabble and Ecko transferred to Oly? I'd much rather see players going back to their old team (Atomatrix and HH + Joy tagging along) for personal/competitive reasons rather than troublemaker(s) transferring to a different league every 2 years and leaving each league in bad terms.
Everyone knew about Psychobabble and Ecko
Everyone knew about Psychobabble and Ecko when they voted on rankings that determined the tournament seeding. Who people like or don't like doesn't really matter for ranking purposes.
WHAT!!???
At least Joy, Atomatrix and Hocky Honey are leaving their 2012 leagues in good terms and are likely to go back to them even if just to practice. Everybody seems to be forgetting that PsychoBabble and Ecko are still living in Colorado and only transferred to Oly because their old team hated them (or at least one of them). So why are we making such a big deal about Joy Atomatrix and HH while no one seemed to care when PsychoBabble and Ecko transferred to Oly? I'd much rather see players going back to their old team (Atomatrix and HH + Joy tagging along) for personal/competitive reasons rather than troublemaker(s) transferring to a different league every 2 years and leaving each league in bad terms.
Psycho and Ecko have played for Oly all season long and most certainly did NOT NOT NOT leave rocky mountain on bad terms or because anyone hated them! To come right out and speak for others by suggesting that these skaters are hated by their old team(s) and to call them troublemakers or to call them names PERIOD, is way out of line. This kind of negativity and outright personal attack is inappropriate to say the very least.
Sure its nice to get an explanation for why things happen or why players make the choices they do but it is absolutely up to them as skaters to play wherever they want or explain those decisions. IF they feel like it. They are paying out of their own pockets to play this sport and dont owe anyone anything. Please stop the nasty lash outs and negative remarks. Its just not needed. Derby is supposed to be fun. This kind of negative drama that is aimed at someone personally, is not.
personal attacks
To come right out and speak for others by suggesting that these skaters are hated by their old team(s) and to call them troublemakers or to call them names PERIOD, is way out of line.
I don't approve personal attacks but sadly bubba888 may be right. I played with the sisters, it wasn't fun.
Colorado Springs girls
At least Joy, Atomatrix and Hocky Honey are leaving their 2012 leagues in good terms and are likely to go back to them even if just to practice. Everybody seems to be forgetting that PsychoBabble and Ecko are still living in Colorado and only transferred to Oly because their old team hated them (or at least one of them). So why are we making such a big deal about Joy Atomatrix and HH while no one seemed to care when PsychoBabble and Ecko transferred to Oly? I'd much rather see players going back to their old team (Atomatrix and HH + Joy tagging along) for personal/competitive reasons rather than troublemaker(s) transferring to a different league every 2 years and leaving each league in bad terms.
I just want to comment here about the accusation that RMRG hates Psycho/DeRanged/Ecko. This is not true. Many of us keep in touch with these girls and cheer them on when we can. If there were any personal issues then I cannot speak to that, but I doubt there is a league out there where everyone gets along and there are no conflicts. As for their reasons for skating for Oly you would have to ask them.
Also, WFTDA should have already had rules in place to prevent this whole "Transfergate" issue. The organizations are to blame in this whole fiasco.
This Thread
Is an hour of my life I won't get back.
Is it effed up
that my biggest question is about off-skate league work?
In Gotham (and, I assume, in most leagues, though I've only been a member of GGRD), if a skater isn't playing that night, they are setting up the sport court, or selling tickets at the door, or running the merch booth, or operating a camera for our broadcast. And that means ERRRYBODY, including the All-Stars. Players are also required to take on a certain amount of responsibility in at least one committee. Players are WFTDA reps, event planners, bout production overseers, etc. We have an outstanding and indispensable volunteer army, but skaters and staff run the show. The commitment to the league, and the community, is SO VERY MUCH MORE than what you do when you're on skates. You also have to acknowledge that a lot of people worked their butts off so you can play your best, and when the time comes, you do the same so your fellow skaters can play THEIR best.
So I guess my question is, how does this work for leagues with "fly-in" transfers? Do they Skype committee meetings? Do they do their share of the work online? How does it go?
curious
I was mildly curious about the same thing. But I know the Oly Rollers run their business unlike any other league I've enountered. I assume their member agreement reflects their unique league personality.
Yawwwwwn
Ooooo look - a column and thread on a totally unrelated subject. I better crack my fifth PBR and get to typing about what an abomination scrum starts are. Fighting for the purity and integrity of the game with my mouth and fingers is what I do. Hell, it's what I LIVE for. Whether DNN or Facebook, gotta keep my name out there. There are only three or four of us crusaders left after all, and people seem to give less of a shit about our whining every day, so -
Boo scrums! Boo "strollerderby!" And most of all - Boooo me not feeling relevant!
This.
The majority of what I have learned in derby was taught to me by people who did so for free (or gas money and crash space), or was developed in practice with teammates in a for real, all-season, guts and glory team. I think that those of us who benefited by being early adopters of derby or by being "backgrounds" (hockey, speed, art, etc.) DO have an obligation to invest in the future of the sport and our regional teams without asking for anything in return. That's probably naive, but it's an ideal that I really believe in.
that.
Win.
Payment
Especially if you're coaching juniors, btw. If you accept payment for coaching juniors (other than fudge and cookies and shit) you should probably think twice.
Drama sucks! Shut up and Skate!
This reminds me of when one of our league founders/officers/coaches/awesome skaters decided that she only had a few seasons left in her aging body and made the decision to leave to skate for a WFTDA Class A league. She had put her heart and soul in the success of WCRR/DSRG for many years...training skaters, helping to run the league, all the stuff that goes into Captaining, dealing with DRAMA and all of the bullshit. She was mentally and emotionally exhausted, and wanted only to SHUT UP and SKATE. It's a difficult transition for anyone to within a league, and her decision to leave was the best one for her. She caught a lot of crap for it, but good for her! It was her shot and she took it. No one can fault her for it.
There is something to be said for those who put in their dues--helping to build a sport, its skaters, a league and everything that goes along with it. People are so quick to judge--and react--without actually thinking through all of the ramifications and personal sacrifice that one puts into this thing we call Roller Derby.
The one thing that comes to mind are the old adages that Drama Sucks and Shut Up and Skate. The sport would be a whole lot better place if people could practice this more often.
Good luck, Joy! And thank you for all of your efforts to help build our league throughout the years.