WFTDA Declares Official Sanctioned Tie in Minnesota vs Windy City
In a Friday press release, the Women's Flat Track Derby Association announced that the official outcome of June 16th's game between Windy City and Minnesota is a 155-155 tie -- the first ever recorded in WFTDA-sanctioned play.
The press release reads as follows:
The Games Review Panel has voted to uphold the sanctioning and the tied score of the 6/16/2012 game between Windy City Rollers and Minnesota RollerGirls.
WFTDA membership has voted in the past that major rules violations alone are not sufficient to de-sanction a game. We found, while the lack of an overtime jam is a major rules violation as a result of officiating errors, there is insufficient evidence that there were enough instances of poor and inconsistent officiating to revoke the sanctioning from this game. As for the unprecedented tied score, we stand by the submitted bout paperwork as the correct totals for the game.
At the time of the game, Windy City was ranked 1st in the North Central region by WFTDA and Minnesota 2nd. Second-quarter rankings, which will determine the seeding for the regional playoffs in September, will be voted on by WFTDA member leagues this month and should be released near the end of the month.
Comments
In the immortal words of Neo
Whoa.
pretty sure that was "Ted" Theodore Logan
The Neo bit was just a callback :)
And in COMPLETELY unrelated news...
http://www.idealist.org/view/job/Z3Z8zN8gJHmD/
who really won that bout...
justice
Oddly enough,
That is totally unrelated. If you think we can get a job description and hiring panel together that fast, you must think we're paid...
Maybe now the derbyverse can
Maybe now the derbyverse can get some sort of explanation of exactly what happened.
Exactly what happened
Thanks to everyone for your interest in this. It's certainly an interesting situation and raises some great questions as the sport develops.
To be specific, a scoring error which gave MNRG additional points occurred during the second period. This error was identified in the post game review of the paperwork and was corrected as part of completing the sanctioning paperwork, but not in time to continue the game.
I think all sports fans know and accept that officiating errors happen, and that for every detected error there are countless undetected errors. The interesting question here is what happens when an outcome-changing error is detected, and proven with good evidence. At what point does the call stand, versus correcting known mistakes? It's a question that every sport does a bit differently and has impact, as everyone notes here, on sanctioning, team record, and rankings.
WeFTDA appreciate the attention and interest you're giving this new and complex question. Hash it out, derby world!
End of Windy's winning streak...but still undefeated!
Gotta love it.
Not sure there was any possible good outcome with this. Here's hoping the NC Championship game is equally exciting...but at least slightly less EQUAL.
I'm probably on my own here...
...but does anyone else feel like this was the "safe" decision? Nobody wins, but nobody loses? Ties happen in plenty of sports - and that's fine - but they happen in normal play and within the time confines of the game. They're not ruled a tie two weeks later.
"After the confusion during game 7 of the final, the NHL has voted that neither team lost. Congratulations on sharing the Stanley cup". Seems ridiculous, right?
Alright, that's an overly-dramatic comparison, but the sentiment is the same. I guess I when I heard this was going to be ruled on by the WFTDA, I expected something considerably more decisive than "we'll go with whatever the score sheet said".
For what it's worth
I think they made the right call here. It was the only decision that was equally (un)fair to both sides.
Personally, my dream decision would have been made the day after the game, and it would have been: "This game is going to be a tie unless you play an overtime jam before the end of the quarter, using the same roster." There's plenty of sports precedent for resuming games after a days- or weeks-long break, and it's not like closed events are something alien to derby. Chances are it would have logistically impossible, but it would have at least given the teams an option for a resolution.
Totally agree!
Justice, someday we'll get there.
What? Its an Outrage?
I tell you...
Sorry Norb had to be done
Seeding Resolution?
So I take it the WFTDA will simply vote for a number 1 and 2 for the NC using that notorious triangulation reasoning? Maybe it can leave both teams at #1 and have Minnesota and Windy play a 15 or 20 minute (overtime?) period as the first bout of the NC regionals to decide the seeding for the remainder of the tournament. A special bout for unique circumstances.
Interesting test of the voting process
I'm very, very curious to see whether Windy or Minnesota emerges as #1.
The WFTDA's voting policy is that only regional games are supposed to count for rankings. Only counting North Central games, Windy City definitely should have the advantage since they beat Naptown quite badly and Minnesota barely squeaked by them. But if the voting leagues take inter-regional games into consideration, Minnesota has the advantage because they did better, more recently, against Charm City than Windy City did. Windy and Minnesota have no other shared opponents this year.
Some people say that this is all a great argument for standings based on standardized seasons and win-loss records rather than voting-based ranking.
Out of region games.
I'm very, very curious to see whether Windy or Minnesota emerges as #1.
The WFTDA's voting policy is that only regional games are supposed to count for rankings. Only counting North Central games, Windy City definitely should have the advantage since they beat Naptown quite badly and Minnesota barely squeaked by them. But if the voting leagues take inter-regional games into consideration, Minnesota has the advantage because they did better, more recently, against Charm City than Windy City did. Windy and Minnesota have no other shared opponents this year.
Some people say that this is all a great argument for standings based on standardized seasons and win-loss records rather than voting-based ranking.
That's not quite accurate, any wftda sanctioned game, through the end of the ranking period, can be factored into the rankings vote. Teams are only required to play 2 in regional games prior to q3 to qualify for regionals.
Wow, Vegas must have just
Wow, Vegas must have just CLEANED UP after this verdict!
I would have been on board for reconvening and running an overtime jam at the next available opportunity. I seem to recall the Orlando Magic and Atlanta Hawks re-playing the last forty seconds of some disputed NBA game weeks after the fact, prior to a different game. If you can make a bunch of multi-millionaires take a do-over for the sake of rulebook justice ((and subsequent outrage mitigation)), i'm pretty sure you can get derby folks to do it without a lot of bedlam and tumult.
Cause yeah, it's totally
Cause yeah, it's totally something I budget for in my travel expenses to make a return trip the next week when I'm paying out of pocket.
Totally force multimillionaire to show up again and pay them money to do it. Sounds like a good idea.
Feel free to make me a multimillionaire any time and I'll show up and replay my tie.
Er, "next available
Er, "next available opportunity" being the key phrase here...
...although i suppose, come
...although i suppose, come to think of it, "next available opportunity" might not be til September, rendering my original suggestion largely inert.
Ergo my suggestion
of a 15-20 minute overtime at the NC regionals to decide the #1 and #2 bracketing. At least as long as y'all just happen to be there. For the closure that may not be obtained by a mere ballot.
Well, i mean, if people are
Well, i mean, if people are generally cool with it being a tie, then that's fine...it's another episode in derby's unique and weird history, and it isn't a horrible decision. But, if people were generally really feeling unfulfilled about the outcome, in my own naive and apparently deranged mind, MNRG could stick 6 or 8 people in a van heading southeast from St. Paul, WCR could stick 6 or 8 people in van heading northeast from Chicago, they could meet in the middle somewhere -- Madison? La Crosse? -- play an overtime jam during the halftime of somebody else's bout, and be back before bar close in their respective hometowns ((although i think the bars close at some ridiculously early hour in Minnesota so i offer no warranty on that claim)), were they so inclined. Maybe that would be cool. The millions required for the two tanks of gas could probably be recouped by the host team, from the additional billions they would rake in at the door. Or, maybe it would come off as really ersatz and even more unsatisfying than the tie, and all participants would be sullen and regretful. I dunno. In any event, as a fan, i imagine that i would enjoy and attend such an event, as -- again, speaking as a fan -- after watching the archived bout footage, half my brain tells me that i have just seen something truly epic, and the other half tells me that i've just seen a bout that my screen tells me ended 160-151, the scoreboard tells me ended 160-155, and somebody's paperwork tells me ended 155-155, and must seek appropriate closure lest i swoon.
Would you believe...
...that in the Australian Rules Football Grand Final Championship Game, that if there is a tie at the final siren, the teams have to come back and play the next weekend all over again?! It's only happened 3 times in the history of the AFL, most recently in 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Final_Replay
In regular season, tied games stand. You get 4 points for a win, 0 for a loss, and in the case of a draw each team gets 2 points.
It's not unusal
The same system is used in a lot of sports. Here in Ireland, the two most popular sports in the country - Gaelic football and hurling (hurling the sport, not the result of tequila) - rarely result in draws. The consequence of a draw in any part of the championship, from round one all the way to the final, is a replay. In '96, a Gaelic football final went to extra time, having ended as a draw in regular play. After 30 minutes of extra time - and several exchanged scores - it was a draw again. A replay was set for the following weekend. Guess what, it was a draw in regular time again, and it went to extra time once more.
This time, it ended with a win (by just two points) during that extra time, but the announcers, coaches, and governing bodies were all rooting through rules and by-laws to find out what happens when a replay ends in a draw. Answer: keep replaying until there's a winner.
There are similarities and differences, in that this is also a strictly amateur sport so there are sacrifices by the players to fulfil such an event, but given the size of this country means the longest distance you can travel is 5 hours by car before you end up going off a cliff, it's a lot easier to enforce this.
I am deffo not advocating it for roller derby!
It was totally rubbish ending the Grand Final in a draw...for the players, and for the punters.
I saw the AFL Game
I saw the game on ESPN3 and what happens is the same 2 teams will meet again if the ge Grand Final ends in a tie and play the rematch at the same venue ( MCG) and its a full game.
Let this remain an interesting bit of derby trivia
Although I am a Windy City fan and would love to see them be the undisputed winners of this game, in the grand scheme of things I don't figure it really makes that huge a difference. I kind of like the idea of there being this one tie in the derby history books.
Regarding rankings, I suppose it would make it easier to rank the two if one or the other had officially won, but, if you're voting, does one jam's worth of points under these circumstances really have that much influence? More than the triangulation arguments identified elsewhere in these comments? If one team beats the other by four or five points in a sudden-death jam, that gives the world a winner and loser but still only proves that these two teams are really, really, really, really closely matched, which we already know.
Going into the tournament, I suppose there is an advantage to having the 1 seed versus the 2 seed because the 2 seed will end up with the 3 seed (almost certainly Naptown) in their bracket, and they are the only team that I see potentially giving either Windy or Minnesota serious trouble. (But, who outside of St. Paul would have predicted what Minnesota did just two years ago?) But I strongly suspect that those three teams will be going to Atlanta from NC, and if my gals go as #2 or #3, I figure that just increases the odds that they'll get more than one game at the tournament that way, and I love to see them play that kind of high-level derby.
not on your own
the outcome of the bout should be decided on the day, not 2 weeks later
Ties.
Ruling a game a tie two weeks after it happened is bush league. Games happen in real time for the skaters, officials and the fans. Everyone involved deserves a real time result.