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(13) Minnesota, (4) Windy City Play to Stalemate

ST. PAUL, MN -- In an extraordinarily tightly contested game between the North Central's top teams, Minnesota (2NC WFTDA, 13 DNN) and Windy City (1NC WFTDA, 4 DNN) battled to a conclusion that appeared to favor Minnesota on the scoreboard in a 160-155 final -- but currently is a bout with no official winner after a scoring discrepancy discovered immediately following the bout left the official score at 155-155.

Head referee Umpire Strikes Back stated on Sunday that the official outcome of the bout is unresolved and being sent to the WFTDA for a final decision.

The post-bout confusion muddied the outcome of what was one of the most exciting games of the year -- according to the visible scoreboard, the contest featured six lead changes, four ties, and four jams in which a team held a one-point lead. On the scoreboard, Minnesota took the lead for the final time with under two minutes to play and won the final two jams to apparently emerge victorious in front of an extremely raucous St. Paul crowd. Windy City had come into the game with a 24-0 winning streak against region teams, and a 5-0 winning streak against Minnesota specifically -- a fact often remarked upon by the announcers to stoke the crowd throughout the back-and-forth game.

Video Courtesy Minnesota RollerGirls

The teams traded 4-0 jams to start the game; by jam 3, both teams were dashing to take over the rearmost position near the jammer line, ending in some pileups between jams. After four jams and about five minutes, Windy City was slightly up 9-4. Jam five saw the first jammer penalty of the night go in Minnesota's favor as Kola Loka took lead and put up 3 before committing a major track cut on her first scoring pass; that gave L'exi Cuter time to make up the scoring pass and more on a 13-3 that left Minnesota up 17-12 with 22:30 in the first half.

Windy City put out Zoe Trocious for the first time on the next jam; with the hometown partisans going wild, Juke Boxx lapped Zoe but committed a major back block on her second scoring pass. Minnesota filled their box on that jam and it'd go 9-4 for Juke, leaving Minnesota with a 26-17 lead.

More importantly, though, it left Minnesota facing a 5-2 situation favoring Windy City. A nice jammer takedown on Kola Loka from Scarmen Hellectra kept the damage to just 10-0, but that'd be enough for Windy to retake the lead at 27-26 with 18:40 to play in the first half.

Minnesota tied it up at 27 with a 1-0 to Harmony Killerbruise next, but brutal Windy City defense from Bork Bork Bork and Sargentina contained Minnesota jammer Second Hand Smoke next; Zoe Trocious claimed lead and then got some help from Smoke as Smoke picked up Minnesota's second jammer penalty. Solid work from MEDUSA and Shiver Me Kimbers in the pack held Zoe to 9-0 on that one, though, leaving Windy City up again, 35-27.

The teams traded power jams two jams later, as both Juke Boxx and Varla Vendetta were boxed; Minnesota was able to momentarily tie at 42 but a big 19-0 from Kola Loka on the tail end of the jammer penalties put WCR up 61-42 with 7:55 in the first half.

The last few minutes of the half were mostly Minnesota rally, which got a boost on the final jam of the half when Varla Vendetta claimed lead for WCR but was reabsorbed into the pack and went to the box before calling it off. Second Hand Smoke reached deep and managed to get 8-0 out of the full length powerjam, leaving it just a one point game at the half with Windy City leading 66-65.

At the break, power jam points were essentially offsetting -- Minnesota, with two penalties to Juke Boxx and one to Second Hand Smoke, had given up 27 points of differential to Windy City, while Windy City, with two penalties to Varla Vendetta and one to Kola Loka, had given up 24.

The Chicago crew managed to quiet the extremely eager Minnesota crowd, adding first-half blocker Yvette Yourmaker to the jammer rotation and taking most of the lead jammer calls as the second half began. Windy City picked up four straight lead jam calls to start the second, picking up three small-ball wins and a 4-4 tie to extend their lead to 79-69. Even when Minnesota started claiming some lead jams of their own, point totals were still very low. Through the first 9 minutes of the half, Windy City slowly extended the 1 point halftime lead to a 18 point advantage at 93-75.

But Minnesota wasn't having it. Hometown favorite Juke Boxx finally managed to get the crowd back into the game with about 20 minutes to go as Diamond Rough and Naughty Kitty worked over WCR jammer Zoe Trocious; Boxx picked up a natural 14-0 to make it a 4 point game, 93-89, with 18:57 to go; the game would be paused there for awhile on an apparent official challenge from Windy City.

Back to back Minnesota 1-0 jams made up half of the deficit to make it 93-91, but Minnesota left the outside open for Varla Vendetta on the next scrum start, allowing Varla to get lead in literally less than a second; Minnesota's L'exi Cuter had no luck against a brutal Windy City pack of KonichiWOW, Jackie Daniels, Tamikaze and Bork Bork Bork. With Minnesota apparently uncertain as to whether to play offense or defense, Varla ran up the game's biggest jam with a crowd-silencing 27-0. Suddenly, Windy City was up 120-91 with 15 minutes to go.

Windy City added 8-0 with the help of Ol' Drrrty Go-Go keeping Juke Boxx in the pack with a last-second hit; that 37 point lead proved to be the largest advantage for either team throughout the bout. Windy City's Yvette Yourmaker took lead again on the next jam but committed the half's first jammer penalty on her first scoring pass. That ended up being a nightmare penalty situation for Windy City as Minnesota had 4 blockers against just 1 for Windy City; Harmony Killerbruise had plenty of daylight during a run that erased almost all of Kola's big run two jams previous.

As it turned out, though, this would be the jam that led to the scoring discrepancy at the end of the bout. Harmony's run was recorded at 19-0, but an addition error on the official scoresheet marked it as 24-0 -- the five-point difference there ended up being the exact number of points that Minnesota eventually won by. Either way, though, it was a major momentum shifter and the hometown crowd clearly sensed their team was right back in it as the scoreboard showed 130-115 Windy City with 10:44 left.

Juke Boxx took the next lead jammer call to an explosive reaction and chose to keep going after scoring 4 with Kola Loka right behind her; it proved to be the right choice as Diamond Rough, Medusa and Hurturde Stein had Kola's number on the run. The Roy Wilkins was on its feet for a 18-4 Minnesota jam -- which yet again made it a one point game at 134-133 Windy City with 8 minutes to play. Windy City took lead on the next, but it went 2-1 to Minnesota, tying it at 135-135 with 7:33 to play.

Minnesota's Second Hand Smoke took lead over Jackie Daniels and got a 4-1 that put Minnesota in the lead for the first time in the half at 140-136 with 6:28 to play; Harmony Killerbruise added 4-0 on the next with the crowd going apoplectic -- Windy City called timeout there with 5:35 on the clock and an 8 point deficit, 144-136.

After the timeout, Windy City was still in major penalty trouble, facing a 4-2 pack deficit and an on-fire Juke Boxx with the jammer star; Juke picked up two scoring passes, but Bork Bork Bork had a jam-saving play by forcing a major track cut on Juke with an athletic toe stop to stay in bounds. Windy City was fortunate to get out of that jam only losing 1 point of ground to Minnesota, with the score 150-141 and 3:23 to play.

The next jam started with a full pack and Juke Boxx standing as Minnesota jammer in the penalty box and Naughty Kitty sitting as blocker; Varla Vendetta toed the line for Windy City. WCR went to the slow outside paceline and got Varla through on the pack split; she got 10-0 to put Windy City up by one yet again, 151-150, with barely under two minutes to play.

But the last two jams were barely advantage Minnesota -- and just enough to take the win. On the second to last jam, Second Hand Smoke faced a 2-skater Windy City pack with Windy's jammer right on her heels -- and Smoke picked up a critical three points with a perfectly timed spin move to get her hips past Hoosier Mama right as she called the jam. With just about a minute to play, Minnesota led 154-151.

With only about a minute left to play, the final jam set L'exi Cuter against Varla Vendetta -- with Windy City still facing a 3-2 pack deficit. Though both jammers seemed defensively minded to start, it was L'exi taking lead -- and wisely keeping the clock running as both jammers completed a scoring pass. Once the period clock hit zero, L'exi called it off with the jam score 6-4 Minnesota, the scoreboard showing 160-155, and some long-frustrated Minnesota fans immediately swarming the track boundary to celebrate a conclusion they'd been awaiting for nearly half a decade.

It was over on the track, but not quite on paper, though -- following the bout, there would be nearly an hour of uncertainty on whether the scoreboard final was the official final. In the end, though, the bout paperwork was signed with 5 points removed from Minnesota's total, leaving the score at 155-155 pending WFTDA review.

Each team lost their jammer 4 times in the bout, but the point differential on powerjams, like the final score, barely favored Minnesota; Minnesota gave up 36 points of differential on jammer penalties while Windy City gave up 48 (or 43, depending on the resolution of the final score).

Minnesota now looks to Championships-levels teams for the rest of the year -- their next five opponents all played at Championships, while their sixth, Rat City, just missed. They get it started at Rollercon in Las Vegas July 27-29 with games against Rocky Mountain (2W WFTDA, 7 DNN), Philly (2E WFTDA, 11 DNN) and Denver (4W WFTDA, 3 DNN).

Windy City will have a hangover bout against 12NC North Star Sunday morning; they also have a very tough three-game series in July when they take on Gotham (1E WFTDA, 1 DNN), Texas (1SC WFTDA, 5 DNN) and Bay Area (6W WFTDA, 6 DNN) in Austin, TX on July 21 and 22.


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Great Write Up!

It was like I was there!

Has this happened before??

Shouldn’t these point totals be checked BEFORE the end of the bout??.. so O.T. would be allowed to occur?

I am also curious to know the answer to this.

Is this the first time this has happened in sanctioned WFTDA play? I know there are hundreds of lower profile games we never get to see...

Once Upon a Time

Once Upon a Time there was a rule/ruling somewhere that the score on the scoreboard is the official score at the end of the bout, for exactly bouts like this. I can't locate said rule/ruling now though. Is it gone, or is my web-fu weak?

What the scoreboard displays affects how skaters play though, and I think the Minnesota win needs to be preserved. She called the last jam off "knowing" that they had won. If the error had been corrected prior to that, then I guarantee that last jam would've ended entirely differently.

Tru dat!... though I dont

Tru dat!... though I dont think Windy will agree.. Sets up for an interesting dynamic come Northerns..

And that's why this is going to WFTDA.

Glad it's in neutral hands now. No matter how much I want the 160-155 score to stand, letting WFTDA make the final call makes sure that there are no charges of bias to either side.

Lots of confusion everywhere. Windy's Twitter feed declared the final score 160-151, then said they were missing 5 points and changed it to 160-155.

It just goes to show you how important it is for both teams to be tracking points and immediately bring up any perceived discrepancies before it becomes an issue.

Above all else, last night's bout shows that these two teams are very evenly matched, and should certainly not be nine places apart in the standings.

They are 1 apart not 9

The WFTDA rankings have Windy 1 and Minnesota 2 in the North Central.

J.M. is..

J.M. is speaking of DNN's rankings.. not WFTDAs


If you take what the rules actually say into consideration, 2.2 Structure, actually gives you the parameters as to how this should be dealt with. If all parties agree throughout the game that the score is what it says, then that is the score. Once it ends, I believe Nate is right, there was a ruling that the official score is what is on the scoreboard. That is why the scoreboards get updated after each jam.

The game is a 60 minute long game, not a day and sixty minutes.

If the final score is overturned, that is going to open up a whole Pandora's box of discrepancies for not only future but post play. One could go so far as to even look back to the 2010 Championship game to watch tape and find Oly wasn't awarded two points somewhere, therefore Rocky's Title should be removed. What a slippery slope.

Finally, it's pretty common knowledge that scoring errors happen during games.That is why the HR will at times add and subtract points based on miscalculation and miscommunication. It happens in all sports. It's human. But if no one acknowledges the score discrepancy during game play, then how can it be dealt with? This is why both teams need need to be responsible for their play and know what the score is throughout the entire game, IMO.

No hypothetical needed

rosietherioter wrote:

The game is a 60 minute long game, not a day and sixty minutes ... If the final score is overturned, that is going to open up a whole Pandora's box of discrepancies for not only future but post play. One could go so far as to even look back to the 2010 Championship game to watch tape and find Oly wasn't awarded two points somewhere, therefore Rocky's Title should be removed.

Remember back in 2009 where some Viking realized a month after the fact that the insane Gotham / Philly 90-89 Eastern final really should have been 89-89?

That said, I do think that the fact that the scoring error in Windy / Minnesota was discovered before the head ref and team captains signed off on the final score is relevant.

the signing

Justice Feelgood Marshall wrote:

That said, I do think that the fact that the scoring error in Windy /Minnesota was discovered before the head ref and team captains signed off on the final score is relevant.

I somehow missed that detail (I see it now). So everyone signed off on what was effectively a broken score sheet (there are no ties in roller derby). That doesn't really help Minnesota's case. But surely the WFTDA can't change the rules of the game and say that it's now possible to have a tie in roller derby, can they? So maybe you throw out the entire game as though it never happened?!? Ugh -- what a mess!

Oh, oh, oh...I know!!! Have them replay the final 10ish minutes of the game at regionals -- winner gets to be the #1 seed. (I'm mostly joking. I think.)

Re: Once Upon a Time

N8 wrote:

Once Upon a Time there was a rule/ruling somewhere that the score on the scoreboard is the official score at the end of the bout, for exactly bouts like this. I can't locate said rule/ruling now though. Is it gone, or is my web-fu weak?.

As far as I can recall, this was never the case and never has been. The only thing in the rules that dictates anything regarding what's been incorporated into scoreboards is that Period and Jam clocks must be visible to all referees, teams, and fans—§2.8. There is no mention of scores on a scoreboard anywhere outside of § which merely indicates that there is to be a scoreboard operator staffed and that they are to post the score given to them by the scorekeeper.


At some point, every experienced scorekeeper learns the importance of obsessively rechecking your subtotals through the game. I guarantee if you scorekeep long enough you will spot misses like that. One only hopes it doesn't happen in a game where the miss affects the outcome of the score. I definitely feel for the NSOs that had to go through this. Mistakes happen.

But to leagues that think that NSO positions are just places to put extraneous skating refs: reducing the instances of this occurring is exactly why your leagues needs dedicated NSOs. I, for one, am very pleased that WFTDA has finally accepted the NSO as a talent that should be developed independently of the skating officials. /highhorse

not the NSO..

This is on the H.R. Though it be THEIR job to score keep.. the H.R. should be checking these things....(I.M.O.) And with a score THIS tight.....it should have been automatic.

except in most cases the head

except in most cases the head ref is skating with the pack refs, not the jam refs relaying the points to the scorekeeping NSO's. Hard to say exactly where the miscommunication came from unless you were on that officiating crew.


I wish I coulda seen this one. Whew!

Hold your horses.

Nothing is official as of now. Games committee is sorting it all out.


they are reviewing video of the bout?


The problem was a math error. You want video of a math error?

They could rewatch the jam in

They could rewatch the jam in question and see if it really should've been recorded 19 or 24 points--seems like the best way to confirm is to rewatch.

Video review.

In other sports there are standards for video review, because angles matter. I am not sure that would be a fair basis for decision making, considering the video was shot for an internet viewing audience, and not for the purposes of official review. Just like one ref can't see all the action, neither can one camera. How you'd shoot for Games/Officials purposes would be different than how you shoot for fans, how you shoot for training video, etc.

speaking of other sports

I can think of exactly zero times in other sports that a review of any kind has taken place in the days following the end of a game and resulted in the outcome of the game being changed. And I CAN think of some cases where everyone and their brother knew the outcome was wrong...but when a game is over, a game is over. You don't change the outcome after the fact. Worst case, you apologize to the team that got the raw end of the deal and you tell them that you hope it won't happen again in the future.

The non-perfect game

Indeed. For those unfamiliar, a perfect game in baseball is one of the most prestigious sporting performances possible.


The link above describes how an ump's blatantly blown call, that is 100% verified by video, ruined one pitcher's perfect game. (Only 22 have happened in about 360,000 games).

Overturned games

There have been many more than zero games in which the outcome was changed after the conclusion of the game due to the organization reviewing the events of the game. Baseball has a specific mechanism for "playing under protest," in which a team that feels an official's incorrect application of a rule has harmed their chances of winning files a protest at the time of the call. The most famous upheld protest is actually referred to in that article about the Galarraga game:



The Pine Tar Incident (also known as the Pine Tar Game) was a controversial incident during an American League game played between the Kansas City Royals and New York Yankees on July 24, 1983 at Yankee Stadium in New York City. With his team trailing 4–3 in the top half of the ninth inning, George Brett of the Royals hit a 2-run home run to give his team the lead. However, Yankees manager Billy Martin, who had noticed a large amount of pine tar on Brett's bat, requested that the umpires inspect his bat. The umpires ruled that the amount of pine tar on the bat exceeded the amount allowed by rule, nullified Brett's home run, and called him out. As Brett was the third out in the ninth inning with the home team in the lead, the game ended with a Yankees win.

The Royals protested the game, and American League president Lee MacPhail upheld their protest and ordered that the game be restarted from the point of Brett's home run. The game was restarted on August 18 and officially ended with the Royals winning 5–4.

Also, here's a particularly fun example that would have really pissed off WindyMan if he'd had a blog in 1947:


Another memorable protested game was the second game of a double-headers between the Dodgers and Phillies in 1947. At the time, Philadelphia had a 7:00 curfew on Sunday games, which meant that all Sunday games had to end by 6:59. The Phillies won the first game of the double-header 4-0 and were tied 4-4 after 6 innings in the second game as the curfew neared.

As luck would have it, the Dodgers would score a run in the top of the 7th so the Phillies started to adopt delay tactics, hoping that the inning would not be completed and the game would revert back to a six inning tie. At that point, the game turned into a travishamockery. The Phillies took their time, changing pitchers and quickly the Dodgers realized what was going on. To counter, the Dodgers had their players slow trot for steals, yet the Phillies made no attempt to pick them off. The Dodgers batters swung at balls out of the zone, including once on an intentional walk and the top of the inning would finally end on an slow-trot attempt to steal home (the Phillies finally succumbed and tug the runner out).

The first batter in the bottom of the 7th could not find his bat, creating a delay and then with the count 2-1, the clock struck 6:59 and the game was called. The next day, Commissioner Ford Frick ruled that the game was to be resumed with the Phillies player at bat in the bottom of the 7th and the Dodgers leading 5-4. Frick, called the game "a farcial exhibition which was a disgrace to baseball and a complete travesty of all the rules of sportsmanship." The Dodgers ended up winning that game 7-5.

I stand (sort of) corrected. :)

Yeah...I should have been more specific with the point I was trying to make.

I'd say these baseball examples are pretty different. These, and the others that people have mentioned, revolve around a team cheating (or at least being very, very unsportsmanlike). While I didn't state it well, I was intending to focus on games where the refs messed up in the course of an otherwise normal game. I've never heard of a game where a mistake by an official was overturned after the fact. (But someone is now likely to find one for me!)

With all that said, I'd be pretty amused if the WFTDA came back and said "Hey Windy, book your flights to Minnesota...we're starting over from the 10-minute mark of the second half!" ;-)


Just goes to show: Amateurs break rules, professionals stretch them.

Big Example

Results are modified all the time when drug tests come back positive, often weeks after the fact.


Thanks, but are you sure?

I've never heard of a team sport having it's results changed after drug testing, just individual sports (weightlifting, cycling, track, etc.) Can you point to a specific instance of a team sport instance where that happened?

Paralympic Basketball, as one.

Not a doping scandal, but one of the basketball teams competing at the 2000 Paralympics had their gold medals stripped when it was discovered they didn't meet the qualifications for competiting in the games:


And I really don't want to comment on minutae of the game or the process that's going on right now. It's in the hands of the GRB, and I think that's exactly where it needs to be right now.


Retroactively invalidating a game because the participants were cheating/not eligible is entirely different than invalidating a game because the officials messed up.


I almost brought up doping cases in individual sports, but figured it was sufficiently irrelevant to be ignored. :-)

I'm a pretty big cycling fan, so this came to mind right away.

But yep -- my bad for over-stating my point.

Now if we focus on results of team sports being over-turned, I think my point still stands. (And yes, I believe college football teams have had to forfeit entire seasons due to recruiting violations...but I'm going to say that's really not relevant to this discussion either.)

how about this?


From the link above:

A scoring error that occurred at the WAC Outdoor Track and Field Championships has affected the outcome of the women’s team results, and is explained below.

The original results in the women’s shot put showed a tie for seventh place between Fresno State’s Kayla Xavier and Idaho’s Martha Hale, who both earned marks of 45’ 8.50” (13.93m). However, after incorporating tie-breaking procedures, the field series confirms that Xavier was seventh with a second-best throw of 44’ 11” (13.69m) and Hale was eighth with a second-best throw of 43’ 6.50” (13.27m). In team scoring, the resulting change gives Fresno State 122 points and Idaho 121.50 points, thus moving Fresno State into second place and Idaho into third.

Track & Field is Not Comparable

Track & Field team medals are handed out through a system of combining the individual results from individual events. Invalidating a team medal in that instance does not really affect the individual results of athletes in their respective events. That's not exactly comparable to roller derby in which everyone on the team makes it or breaks it as a team.


The examples that came to my mind when Dave made his point were in major league baseball. There have been cases in years past when a foul ball was ruled a home run (and home runs ruled foul) due to an umpire's bad call. Although TV coverage clearly showed the truth, at the time MLB had no instant replay rule (in fact no TVs or monitors are allowed on the field or in dugouts), so the umpire's incorrect ruling stood. Even though the score was wrong, the result stood, even if the "wrong" team won.

MLB had since created rules for limited video review, but that sort of thing probably wouldn't currently work for Derby, it's not like we have 10 cameras following every jam.

waiting for the call...

waiting for the call... hoping it's soon. And math error or not, being up on the scoreboard changes everything about how you play those last minutes... Based on the write up, I think it has to stand. Massive congrats Minnesota regardless of the final decision, you earned that one

Oy Vey!!!

THIS one gives us scorekeepers ulcers and sleepless nights!

Amazing picture!

Great shot by Gil Leora of the Bork-Kola-KWow train!



Loco Chanel wrote:

Great shot by Gil Leora of the Bork-Kola-KWow train!


WTF - why are there 3 negative votes on this comment? Yay for a little photographer love! :)


Thanks Loco. That was a battle if I ever saw one. Really glad to be there for that. I also have to give major props to the Minnesota fans. That place was on fire from all the energy. It was truly nice to see.

Also thanks Dave. Not sure about negative votes. I just shoot pictures and drink beer. Happy things.

It was great having you!

Can't wait to see the whole set!

Best. Bout. EVER!

I was lucky enough to watch these two insanely talented teams skate last night in person. This was, by far, the best bout I have ever watched. As a MN girl, I would love to see the score stand, but I agree with John Maddening, I want to see this decided by neutral folks so no one can claim shenanigans. These amazing athletes (on both leagues) fought WAY too hard to have that taken from them.

Way to go MNRG!! Way to go WCR!!



And...NSOing is HARD :)


I don't envy the referees and NSO positions at all. Their job is incredibly tough (and usually thankless).

But all things considered, when the final whistle blows that should be it. I know WFTDA will make the right decision (I'll be impatiently waiting).

It was one of the most incredible bouts I've witnessed in the last 8 years. I put it right up there with the Oly/Rocky Mountain final.


I'll be disappointed with WFTDA if this is not ruled a Minnesota victory. As a skater who has participated in a bout with these similar circumstances, it sets bad precedent to change the victor of the bout after the game is declared over. If we decide to change the victor based on counting errors by the scorekeepers, what's to stop changing things based on ref counting errors or even missed penalty calls? Maybe, we should review the video of every close bout and count the points and then declare the winner after that is done? You really need to draw the line somewhere, and it needs to be very clear in the rules. If you want to keep fans, you do it once the refs declare the bout over, which should come AFTER an immediate recount of the scorekeepers' sheets in the case of close bouts.

I think the outcome may very

I think the outcome may very likely depend on the circumstances of the discrepancy. The story I've heard is that excited Minnesota fans rushed the sideline/track immediately after the final jam ended - which strikes me as very similar to the 2009 Championship Game (I think?) where fans rushed the track at the end of the period clock, rather than the jam clock - leading to the jam being called for safety, and the score standing as-is, because there was no allowance in the rules for an additional jam.

While that led to a specific rules change, this may be a similar situation with slightly different circumstances - I have seen many bouts where the fans rush the track edge and the skaters start the high fives while the jammer refs are still over at the scoreboard checking the math etc. In each situation I've seen, there have been no changes (or at least, no changes which effect the outcome of the game) - but I can easily imagine a situation where the crowd/fans/skaters end up all over the place, far too disorganised and dispersed to get them together for a final overtime jam - not to mention that in the rush for the sideline, I can imagine drinks being spilled, rubbish/flyers/programs being dropped everywhere, general litter/detritus - far too much to quickly/easily clean up even if the skaters can be organised into an overtime jam.

I'm not saying that any of these things actually happened - I haven't seen the video/archive, and I live halfway around the world. I'm simply saying that I can see various situations where the track was rushed/otherwise made unsafe or impossible to revert to playable conditions through no fault of the referees, who were still *in the process* of confirming/finalising the score.

This is why it's in the hands of WFTDA - if it is indeed a case of external circumstances making it unfeasible to amend the error and the subsequent stalemate, then, like that 2009 game, I imagine that the score will stand, and it may be the only WFTDA stalemate ever. If, on the other hand, it can be determined that some specific and amendable error occurred...I don't know what WFTDA will do, but I can imagine it will be as fair and equitable as possible given the specifics of the situation.

Incredible bout...whatever the outcome

The crowd definitely rushed the track. I don't think there was a single person at the Roy that wasn't on the edge of their seats throughout the entire bout, whether they were long time fans or were watching derby for the first time (my voice is still hoarse this morning)! As soon as L'exi called the last jam and MNRG started celebrating, I'm not sure there would have been any way to stop the fans from rushing in to celebrate with them. If I hadn't been in the balcony, I would have been fighting for my spot to get some roller girl sweat on my hand, as well.

It's too bad that such an incredible display of our sport wound up with a controversial ending. I'm hoping Minnesota's win will stand. Granted, I'm loyal to any league from Minnesota, but as someone said earlier, L'exi had no reason to continue the jam after the official time had run out based on all available information - the scoreboard. I'd feel the same way if it would have been the other way around. I know the officials have a very, very tough job - derby is insanely fast, the rules are complicated and they have SO much to keep track of - but when an unknown error leads a team to a specific strategy, I don't know that it's fair to the skaters to say, "Oops, we screwed up - you probably shouldn't have called that last jam off because you needed more points and yes, we know that you didn't know that." As in life, we learn from our mistakes and figure out how to prevent them from happening the next time.

Here's a question (keeping in mind that I've never NSO'ed or refed): why don't the scorekeepers use laptops and an Excel spreadsheet instead of (or along side in case of a power outage) tallying the score by hand? A simple sum formula would keep a running tally that could be quickly compared with just a glance. I feel bad for the NSO's that had to endure "the look" (and probably then some) from Ump once this was discovered.

"Here's a question (keeping

"Here's a question (keeping in mind that I've never NSO'ed or refed): why don't the scorekeepers use laptops and an Excel spreadsheet instead of (or along side in case of a power outage) tallying the score by hand?"

Cost, mainly. It's a rare league that can provide more than maybe one computer to run the scoreboard. Yes, you could probably find individual people who would provide computers, but scorekeeping, stats, ect., needs to be within the league's control, not dependent on whether somebody shows up this week or not, and whether his or her computer works, etc. etc. It would be great to fully automate statistics and scorekeeping, but that's a pretty serious investment in hardware and software (because you'd also have to network everything). And if nothing else, having everything on paper protects from a power outage or hard disk crash.

Thanks, Lemmy! That makes

Thanks, Lemmy! That makes sense - few of us make enough money for expenses over and above what's needed to practice and put on production bouts. Well, hopefully as the rest of the world continues to discover how cool we all are, that will cease to be the barrier to increasing technology!

Rat City

has a fully electronic system if I'm not mistaken, including monitors or laptops on team benches with white board stats? Can anyone corroborate? I'm sure they'd tell you how they do it if you're interested.

Rat City's Penalty Tracking System

They do!!

For home bouts, their penalties are tracked at the NSO table and sent to a monitor at each bench, so team captains, bench coaches, etc can have instant access to data without the whiteboard taking up room in the middle of the track.

It makes for a much "cleaner" infield, for sure. =)

Rat City's Penalty Tracking system

is not really fully electronic. We have penalty monitors at the team benches, true, but everything else is similar to how it's done other places, with the obvious exception of hand signaling all penalties to exterior trackers. The system we use certainly wouldn't have prevented this as we use the same score sheets/pencil and paper everyone else does. The penalty monitors just replace the inside white board.


"Here's a question (keeping in mind that I've never NSO'ed or refed): why don't the scorekeepers use laptops and an Excel spreadsheet instead of (or along side in case of a power outage) tallying the score by hand?"

This is one of the benefits of using Rinxter. Since it's free, you can always use it on borrowed laptops to keep costs low.

Not yet ready for prime time.

Kill Nye wrote:

"Here's a question (keeping in mind that I've never NSO'ed or refed): why don't the scorekeepers use laptops and an Excel spreadsheet instead of (or along side in case of a power outage) tallying the score by hand?"

This is one of the benefits of using Rinxter. Since it's free, you can always use it on borrowed laptops to keep costs low.

Were you watching the tournaments I was watching last fall? Scores like 1034-528? An occasional five point mishap is easier to deal with than something that's regularly displaying the wrong score. And reportedly has a UI that makes it fairly difficult to actually fix mistakes.

Which tournament & feedback

Which tournament are you referring to? We use Rinxter regularly at our home scrimmages and live bout streams, and I personally haven't heard anyone complain about score adjustment UI issue/wrong score display. Of course if you have feedback/suggestions, I'm sure the developer would appreciate hearing from users.

While it does require wi-fi, it is revolutionary. I've been totally spoiled with getting my scrimmage and bout stats right after the game.

tech requirements

seconding all that, but with a correction... Rinxter doesn't "require" wi-fi, if you don't mind running network cable between machines.

Other options for checking math in real time include VisiCalc or Lotus 1-2-3. The 1980's are a truly wondrous time to be alive!

Which tournaments?

Hyper Lynx wrote:

Which tournament are you referring to? We use Rinxter regularly at our home scrimmages and live bout streams, and I personally haven't heard anyone complain about score adjustment UI issue/wrong score display. Of course if you have feedback/suggestions, I'm sure the developer would appreciate hearing from users.

While it does require wi-fi, it is revolutionary. I've been totally spoiled with getting my scrimmage and bout stats right after the game.

Last year's Playoffs, at least one or two of them. Scores went all over the map. It's got a few issues with providing live stats and in-stream scores. Most of the derby world has watched this happen for themselves.

Local vs. global

I'm pretty sure what Poobah is describing isn't the local (in-venue) experience, but rather what was visible in the cases where we took a swing at providing near-realtime stats data on the internet via Rinxter's onsite server syncing data to Rinxter.com and beyond. Sometimes it worked brilliantly; others, holy batshit, batman. With so many moving parts, that's the nature of the beast.

Backing out several layers of abstraction, a great deal of experience suggests to me that electronic solutions will solve many problems while introducing many new ones. I'm very much in favor of pressing ahead, with the full knowledge that we've got a road ahead of us before all the kinks are full worked out, be they paper or pixel.


Because of that historic track rushing game, lots of announcers have a canned little spiel they toss out before the last jam telling fans not to rush the track. I admit it's not a perfect solution, but if more announcers do it it could at least lessen these sorts of things.

Rushing the track?

I would just like to clarify, we did not "rush the track". We ran to the taped off outside line so we could slap hands with ALL the athletes. MN fans are pretty respectful of those rules, and we did not interfere with anything that the derby girls were trying to do. Even a particular All Star who was not skating Saturday night, on the sidelines with us fans, waited for about 3 minutes before SHE rushed out to be with her team.
Had the refs or announcers told us fans to move back, I would have and I would like to believe that the other fans would have as well.

All in all it was an intense very exciting bout and I am eagerly awaiting the ruling!


LOL! Organeyezerrr's right -

LOL! Organeyezerrr's right - no one was actually on the track. But, from my vantage point up in 202, it was a "snooze you lose" situation if you didn't jump up and get your sweat-swapping spot once MNRG started celebrating. I also agree that, had there been an announcement that the track area needed to be cleared for an extra jam, it could have been done without anyone getting too obnoxious. Minnesota Nice, dontchya know. But I also heard that the track tape was already being pulled up by the time they got the score sorted out. Something about venue time constraints?

Man, that was fun - I still have a scratchy voice!

That 2009 game

It wasn't the championship, or even one of the regional championships -- it was the last game on Saturday at Westerns, the first ever official meeting on the track between the two Westerns hosts, the Denver Roller Dolls and the Rocky Mountain Rollergirls. (Both would end up advancing to Champs.)


This seems like a no-brainer to me. Based on this article, it sounds like the final jam was skated under the assumption that Minnesota had a 3-point lead at the start of that jam. It doesn't sound like the scoring of the final jam itself is being debated. I can't imagine a decision being made to fix a scoring error that occurred in any jam other than the last one (and even fixing that after the score has been declared official would seem pretty weird).

One thing's for sure -- the rules should say something about this and they don't (at least not that I could find). There should be some sort of formal limit on how far back you can go to challenge a score-keeping error.


the closest the rules come to mentioning scorekeeping errors is in section 8. the rules do not, however, state how to resolve the situation:

Quote: - Points Awarded in Error are points that have not been legally earned by a Jammer and have been awarded to her and her team incorrectly and/or erroneously by a referee, an official, or as the result of a technology malfunction..

i believe that sending the situation to Games was the correct choice of action.


This is the weird thing. I and several people I have spoken to recall a rule/ruling about exactly this in the past, but now we haven't been able to relocate it.

Does anyone out in DNN recall this? Are they able to verify maybe an older ruleset and it got dropped or something?

If you are Minnesota

Do you want this victory because of a math error? It sucks all the way around for everyone.

The victory

would not be because of a math error... it would be because we played the last jam according to the score that everyone understood as correct at the time.

More than Math

Squintz wrote:

Do you want this victory because of a math error? It sucks all the way around for everyone.

While I see your point, I don't think it's quite fair to make it that cut & dry. Given the scoreboard at the start of the jam, I'm guessing every person on both teams thought that Minnesota had won.

Without having seen it, it's hard to say...but it seems to me that they got the victory because they won the critical final jam. Sure, it would have been played somewhat differently had the score been correct when it started, but it still would have been a critical final jam with both teams desperately needed to get lead in order to win. If Minnesota gets the win (and I still can't imagine that they won't), I think they can take a lot of pride in the victory given that last-jam lead-jammer status that they won.

But most importantly, they'll probably meet again in the regional finals...and that will only be even more epic as a result of this game!

Math error

Lexi got lead jammer, that would not have changed if the score had been correct going into the last jam. What WOULD have changed was when she called off the jam. The jam clock had not yet expired and it is reasonable to assume that Lexi would have kept skating and scored ONE point before WCR and THEN called off the jam, or at least in my mind! :)

And more

I think one could argue that it's more than just when she called it off, although that's definitely extremely important and necessary to the debate. I felt like her strategy was to skate a little conservatively and only make sure she was scoring enough points to keep the lead. Had the game actually been on the line, she probably would've skated with a little more intensity so that she was certain she was outscoring Windy by enough to overcome the deficit.

holy shit, you know, just holy shit.

We were told by the officials the final is 155/155.

I agree MNRG played the final jam with the information at hand. Why wouldn't you? It should be right. WCR lost a game earlier this season, which possibly may not had been lost had we had the information at hand prior to the start of the last jam (but maybe it would have anyway). It blows. We totally get it.

I also know had the MNRG jammer kept going, she could have been boxed for a penalty, or never scored another point. You just don't know. That is the suck of it.

I am not exactly sure of what I think. Aside from there is much confusion and a couple or few errors that were discovered. The game should have been played out, it is unfortunate to both teams we didn't have the chance to play a game with the proper information on the scoreboard or have the chance at a final jam.

I don't know what if anything of the board posted scores were "final". I know there were 2 scoreboards, the one I glanced at post game neither said 155/160 or 155/155. I thought the error was discovered in the phase between unofficial and final, within minutes, but I don't know for sure (the place went wild - immediately, and nothing was confirmed that I heard). I know that the officials told us, and presented paperwork to us that said 155/155. That is the only thing I can say for sure other than...

it was an awesome game, clearly an equal match. I can't wait to do it again.

Nothing official as of yet...

I just spoke with someone from WFTDA who said there is nothing "official" as of 2:10 CST. She said that it may take a few more days...but right now they are posting the score as 155 - 155.

Even though ties are terrible, this was the best decision

You have to recognize the error especially since it was brought to light, and all of the "ifs" can not come into it. There are too many variables. Could the jammer have scored more points? Sure. Could she have committed a major back block and been sent to the box? Absolutely.

The best decision would have been one made at the bout.

The problem now is: if you recognize this error when does it stop? From a purely self-serving standpoint if I was captain of a team after any close game I would refuse to sign the bout results and demand that it be sent to WFTDA, because what's the harm to you in doing that? Also, from a fan perspective I will now care less about any close game I watch because I won't know if that score is accurate or even considered accurate. The correct decision would have been to consider the score displayed going into the final jam as fully correct and then judge the final jam from there. Somethings cannot be decided by committee. Somethings require an actual executive decision.

actually ...

Meg Gyver wrote:

From a purely self-serving standpoint if I was captain of a team after any close game I would refuse to sign the bout results and demand that it be sent to WFTDA, because what's the harm to you in doing that?

signing an IBRF (or ITRF) means you saw the paper, not that you necessarily like what it says. also, if it was a regulation or sanctioned bout, the paperwork will go to WFTDA.

not signing it harms the already-super-stressed-out-and-tired Head Referee who just wants to go home/go to the after party/leave.


So, you're telling me that every bout isn't actually decided until several days after the bout when WFTDA has officially reviewed it? If that's so, why would anyone ever watch this sport?

Well, not quite the same

Well, not quite the same situation, but WFTDA has made decisions about at least one bout post game play that had an effect to it.


That's not really comparable

That instance isn't really comparable to this. That bout had it's sanctioning revoked because one team broke the rules. In this game, both teams played their best and played the way they played because of the officials. The officials screwed up this game. Nobody wants to seem to come right out and say it: The officials screwed up this game.

Glad to know you were right there and can shed some light on it!

Which officials were involved? Were they green volunteers, or seasoned vets? During which jam, precisely, did the mistake occur? What was the mistake - communication, recording, or arithmetic?

Geez, you're angrier than anyone who actually played in the game. Calm down, there's an official review taking place.

No bout is 100% accurate

Remember that we're talking about volunteers here. Other sports pay their officials, even beer league/amateur sports. Roller derby doesn't.

The fact is that no roller derby bout is ever called 100% accurately. As someone who has watched A LOT of derby video specifically for the purposes of dissecting the action, I can tell you that things always get missed. The regional playoffs and WFTDA championship tournaments are usually called very accurately, but no bout is called perfectly. It's simply impossible for refs to see everything no matter how many you put around the track.

—But that's part of sports as a whole. You can rewatch a game of the NBA finals and point to an instance where LeBron James takes 4 steps before dunking the basketball to win the game and say that those 2 points shouldn't have counted. The points will still stand. You can use MLB's strike zone tracking technology to prove that a strike 3 call that ended the game was actually a few inches outside. The strikeout will not be overturned. A lot of sports have instituted a video review process to help correct some of the errors, but even with them, errors still happen. Whenever you're dealing with imperfect human beings making imperfect human decisions, you're going to get human errors. It's a part of sports.

We use that as a crutch

I think we use "remember, we are volunteers" as a crutch a little too much. It lays the groundwork for excuse making. I am not saying that mistakes can not and will not happen, but when they do for us to say that those mistakes are somehow okay because everyone is a volunteer devalues the work that we all do. A paycheck should not determine work ethic.

I am in love with you Squintz + other things

yes, I am.

While I think there are some issues with the calls, I do not believe that is what in question here. The problem from what I undertand is the scoreboard did not accurately reflect points reported/earned/noted in the last few jams at the end. Which is what determines the winner of a game, points earned VS points earned.

2.2.2 states, the team with the most points at the end of the game wins. It doesn't clarify if that is on paper, or on the scoreboard.

Work ethic?

There's no reason to question NSO work ethic here. We're talking about someone who was standing in the middle of the track while the jam ref circled them, sending them points rapid fire from a multitude of directions. This person had to look down to write the points on the sheet and relay those the the scoreboard while keeping track of where the jam ref was to get the next scoring pass. —All while a couple thousand fans were going crazy all around them. It's a high pressure situation, and a human being will occasionally make mistakes. It happens in all sports.

The difference between other sports and derby is that the volunteers who ref and NSO do it because they want to help a growing sport that they love continue to grow. Yes, refs in other sports love those sports too, but they get compensted for the help they provide. A paid employee is agreeing to provide their services for a negotiated price, and as such, the employer has a right to demand a certain level of performance for their investment. Volunteers are not entering int any such agreement; they just give for the purpose of giving. When you (whoever) criticize volunteers in an open forum like this, you break Rule Zero of roller derby.

Do you think whoever made the error doesn't know it? Do you think that the head ref didn't have a long meeting to discuss it? Do you think that person somehow doesn't feel sufficiently horrible enough that they deserve to be called out on the internet in front of everyone and further shamed? There's a certain entitled attitude that a lot of sports fans seem to have which I despise. In stead of appreciating what they have, they often demand that everything go their way and look for someone to demonize when it does not. I hate that kind of attitude. It ruins sports for me, and I want roller derby to be above it.

Let me be clear that I do not have any idea who the NSO in question is. I don't know if it was someone from MNRG or WCR or another visiting official. I don't want to know. Regardless, I still feel terrible for that person. We should all be asking how this should be handled and how we can improve the process to prevent it from happening again. We should not be asking who we can blame.

Having been an NSO

I know exactly how tough it is. You are doing a lot of things at one time and things are happening fast. And, I am not questioning NSO work ethic, I am responding to those who keep harping on everyone being here voluntarily, and therefore any mistakes are somehow expected or okay.

I never criticized NSOs or volunteers, and I am seriously wondering where you came up with that? Prove your point okay, but don't put words in my mouth to do so.

Sorry, I did not mean you specifically

I did not mean that you specifically were insulting NSOs or refs; that's why I put the "whoever" in there. The "you" was meant as a collective pronoun, i.e. "you, the roller derby world." I was more referring to the idea that being unpaid is a cruch for excusing poor work ethic. —I don't think that is the case at all. I have never once thought a NSO or ref is hiding behind volunteer status to excuse poor performance. It's been my experience that those people are actually very critical of themselves (again, as a whole).

My point, stated more elequently, is:
"The volunteer NSOs and refs try very hard and put in a lot of hours for the skaters who get the glory. Without the refs and NSOs, we never would have had this awesome bout in the first place. Mistakes are bad, but they are also unavoidable to a certain extent. It's the place of the head refs and leageues and WFTDA to deal with errors internally and try to constantly improve things. It's not appropriate for people to go on the internet and critize the volunteers for their uncompensated hard work."

I get where you're coming from. There should be accountability, and I trust that the people in charge are trying to have accountability. I just think that people often don't consider the perspective of the person(s) they are criticizing when they post angry things on the internet for everyone to see.

That's why I said "it's not

That's why I said "it's not quite the same" but it *is* an example of a decision made by WFTDA days AFTER the bout was over, which is what you were inquiring about.

Why does anyone need to come out and say "The officials screwed this up"? It seems pretty evident where the blame is going. Maybe I'm the only one but the way I see it, there are plenty of other factors in it all that would have resulted in us not having this conversation.

Bench staff. I'm sure we've all seen plenty OTO's immediately after a jam because benches were debating the score on the scoreboard. But why not after MNRG's power jam with an extra grand slam on the board?

Announcers. Why didn't they announce to wait for confirmation of the official final score? They covered the "don't rush the track until the end of the jam" but not a "what until we have an official final score" (not that I recall hearing anyhow).

Venue set up. It puts the scorekeepers in the middle with needing to add a step to the job with flash cards. More steps in a task increase chances of error, such as missing writing down the points in a scoring pass with a jam containing multiple scoring passes.

How about some constructive resolutions to prevent this from happening again to better the sport you're so passionate about instead of just hate on the officials and what is being done for resolution? Even though I wasn't around for the beginning of the sport and the evolution of officiating to where it is now, but I am willing to bet my skates a lot of the standard procedures, nso positions, and the stats forms themselves were all developed and modified because of errors like this to reduce future errors.

Officials tend to work together to figure out why errors accorded and how to eliminate that from happening in the future. I'm sure if other sources felt that they could have contributed to this situation like bench coaches and announcers are doing the same to better the out come. Why not join in that part instead of the negativity? Be positive Meg. Be positive.

Being discussed

DiggerIZout wrote:

How about some constructive resolutions to prevent this from happening again to better the sport you're so passionate about instead of just hate on the officials and what is being done for resolution? Even though I wasn't around for the beginning of the sport and the evolution of officiating to where it is now, but I am willing to bet my skates a lot of the standard procedures, nso positions, and the stats forms themselves were all developed and modified because of errors like this to reduce future errors.

This is definitely taking place, though not necessarily in public spaces. Not that public commentary wouldn't be useful, but it would be unfair for people to think that the officiating staff isn't putting its best people on methods to prevent a future occurence; both in a venue-specific way as well as suggestions for other leagues.


DiggerIZout wrote:

Announcers. Why didn't they announce to wait for confirmation of the official final score? They covered the "don't rush the track until the end of the jam" but not a "what until we have an official final score" (not that I recall hearing anyhow).

I'm not sure if you've ever announced a bout before, let alone a bout of this magnitude. Thousands of fans aren't going to sit quietly on their hands while the officials all go backstage and look for errors.

Here's the last few minutes of the bout, as recorded by a fan (we hope to have the full multi-camera game up soon):

As you can see, MNRG calls it off, the crowd cheers and jumps to their feet. Nobody rushes onto the track except for a few non-rostered members of the MNRG All-Stars. (This is Minnesota, we're polite.) The crowd *walks* up to the edge of the track and gets ready to high-five the home team. The officials huddle in the center and talk, then head off backstage as the celebration continues.

If this had been a simple, obvious error that had taken place within the last few jams and the officials had figured it out in their huddle, I am certain that Bryant Mumble and I could have quickly and safely gotten people back to their seats for a tiebreaker jam. The issue did not become known until the officials were backstage, as the crowd was already half out the doors.


Venue set up. It puts the scorekeepers in the middle with needing to add a step to the job with flash cards. More steps in a task increase chances of error, such as missing writing down the points in a scoring pass with a jam containing multiple scoring passes.

It's been like that for eight seasons now with no greater issues than any other venue.

It took a while to learn what happened

We found out well after the crowd came down. The crowd left the track before anything was heard. I went to the back and changed into my street clothes before I heard anything....

I'm just interested in looking at the whole picture. That's all.

I'm just interested in looking at the whole picture. That's all.

Scorekeepers on the OUTSIDE is better.

DiggerIZout wrote:

Venue set up. It puts the scorekeepers in the middle with needing to add a step to the job with flash cards. More steps in a task increase chances of error, such as missing writing down the points in a scoring pass with a jam containing multiple scoring passes.

Just my opinions (which have changed a bit in recent years).

Jam refs signal points scored per pass. Scorekeepers on the outside (with whiteboards on the backs of their clipboards) view those handsignals (without the dizzying job of trying to watch someone who's circling them) and record the passes scored. They can optionally write their points scored and signal back to the jam ref for confirmation at jam's end if desired. Or ask him/her a question with same. They can let the scoreboard op know verbally what their team's score is AS IT HAPPENS. Scoreboard op doesn't (and shouldn't) wait till the end of the jam to put points on the scoreboard.

Ideally you want to get as many NSOs as possible OUT of the middle of the track. One nice thing about a no minors rule set is that penalty trackers could be pulled out of the middle as well. Just spot hand signals for majors upon whistles blown. The only reason they're on the inside now is that minors are called verbally.

no ...

just sharing post-bout protocol.

Thanks for an amazing bout...

Jackie, the rest of WCR and of course MNRG. No matter what the "official" outcome, that was still my favorite bout ever.....
I will remember it for a LONG time, regardless of the "controversy". :-)

I love watching a nail biter, I just want to stop biting my nails now!

Much love to all!

A Comment on Scorekeepers with Laptops

I've been an NSO / Scorekeeper for several seasons now, and personally I'd be OPPOSED to having to work with a laptop / spreadsheet setup.

Besides the cost factor (which some leagues really can't afford), IMHO having to diddle with a laptop is a distraction that will generate MORE errors.

At one point, I'd been scorekeeping every bout, but I hadn't actually SEEN a bout all season; instead, I became an adept JAM REF CRITIC! You can't keep your attention locked on a jam ref's hand signals and work on a spreadsheet at the same time.

Things just happen too fast out there; if you have to correct a bad spread sheet entry, you've gotta break off eye contact with the jam ref and concentrate on the laptop.

In this case, simple is better; a clipboard and a pencil seems to me to be the best way to go.

Granted, I work with spreadsheets all day long

I honestly don't see it as being difficult, besides the cost/networking factor. With just a little practice, you wouldn't even have to take your eyes off the jam refs to enter the scores on each pass and, between jams, all it would take is a quick glance at the two score keeper totals and the official scoreboard to find a discrepancy.

Jam 1
Home Away
5 *tab* 5
5 *tab* 4

10 9
(running sum formula)

Old Time Hockey

If this were the old Norris Division, no one would be up in arms about a tie game between Chicago and Minnesota.

Just sayin'.

there are math errors and math errors...

I thin it's important to make a couple of distinctions:

Starting video replay looking at jammers hips I think is an absolute pandoras box... And I do not think derby is ready for this sort of review. But replay looking at the points per pass indicated by the jam ref is a different thing, and in cases like this are necessary and appropriate

I'm told the video shows that the jam in question was 24 points NOT 19 points; and the score keeper recorded the correct score in the total, just omitted to write down one 5 point pass.

Given the above, and skipping all the (valid) arguments for the way you play when you are up on the scoreboard vs. down on the scoreboard, it seems very clear to me that MNRG should be awarded the (sanctioned) win.

Also want to say that I am excited to see the rivalry between windy city and mnrg in the coming years, you are both freaking amazing and bring on more contests like this one.

Hater xx

It's Complicated

Haterade wrote:

I'm told the video shows that the jam in question was 24 points NOT 19 points; and the score keeper recorded the correct score in the total, just omitted to write down one 5 point pass.

I assure you that if this were the whole truth then this would have been resolved very quickly last weekend (and scared everyone into action based on the "sheer luck" of such a coincidence).

The incorrect jam, and the secrecy (again)

I'm having a very hard time understanding why there is so much secrecy surrounding what happened.

When I tried to get information on what had occurred immediately following the bout (cause I obviously could not post the recap without knowing what the score was), I was told by referees, team members, and NSOs that they were not allowed to talk about whatever error had resulted in the tie. All of the information I was able to get was prefaced with "I don't think I'm supposed to tell you this, and don't quote me, but..."

After a whole lot of this, I was finally able to triple-source (anonymously, of course) the information that it was the Harmony jam that was misreported, all from people who should have been in a position to know. Then when the article was posted, I started hearing from bout participants that this was incorrect, that it was a different jam that caused the problem -- but when I asked them to explain how and why, I was told "Sorry, I'm not allowed to talk about it..."

Seriously, why the gag order? I could understand if the head referee asked the other referees not to talk about it, but why should that extend to the teams? Furthermore, it states right in the rules that the head referee is the final authority in the game -- why should a person in this role feel that he's not allowed to publicly state what happened in the game?

The focus on trying to keep things secret has led to far more confusion and misinformation than there would have been if somebody who had all the known information had just been willing to make a statement in the first place. It wouldn't have to be a definitive one, just a "This is what we know, and based on these facts, we've decided to kick it upstairs to WFTDA for a resolution."

First reports are always wrong

I'm reminded of the military maxim; "First reports are always wrong."

I feel like I'm poking a hornets' nest now

Oh. Well now I'm really curious. Because when we were watching there was definitely a jam we saw where we thought Minnesota had been awarded an extra pass, but it wasn't the one mentioned in the article, so we assumed that was not this error.

This is the least surprising thing ever posted on DNN

I mean, when has a clear concise statement about anything without any confusion ever happened in WFTDA history?

secrecy and statements.

Initially, we did ask the team to keep it off Facebook (etc) til the details were sorted out.

I am happy to talk about what I know or even, dare I say, think. Mostly, I choose to say very little, because I prefer not to get everything I say overanalyzed in comment threads :)

There isn't a gag order on anyone from WCR - I think people are trying to be respectful of both teams and everyone that worked so hard to put the game on.


So When I turned off this bout coverage Saturday night I was sure Minnesota won. I just saw this shitstorm today. Wow lol! My question is thus; why when both teams signed off on a tie did the bout not immediately go into overtime? Since, ya know, there are no ties in derby. WFTDA has no choice but to retain MNRG as the winner since a bout cannot end in a tie right? I have no horse in this race (DDG fan here) but it seems clear that we have to default to a scoreboard which at the time of the final jam displayed an uncontested score.

Because it took 10-15 minutes after the final jam ended.

andrew48220 wrote:

My question is thus; why when both teams signed off on a tie did the bout not immediately go into overtime? Since, ya know, there are no ties in derby.

Because the fans had left, the track was being pulled, skaters were having their celebrational beers, and there was IIRC already a scissors lift working on lighting for the next event. I'm certain that, had it been possible, that's exactly what would have been done.


So the track was pulled and the skaters were drinking before an official score? How long does it typically take for it to come in?

Relative time

Longer than it takes for a beer to get into a victorious skater's hand? ;)


All of this great drama aside...That was an awesome bout! Cue WFTDAclassic.

It's usually pretty immediate.

If the refs ever have an issue, they signal us from the center of the track. In this case, the officials huddled as usual, then went back as usual. Skaters were congratulated by the crowd, then skated in back as the volunteers started pulling up the track and the union guys began tearing down the stage, seating, etc.

And lemme tell you, when you finally beat the fantastic team that you've lost to all five times you've played them, the team that had an amazing 24-0 record against NC teams...you get a beer in your hand pretty darn quickly.


Gosh, I haven't seen a skater with a beer at their venue, oh, since 2008. Usually after a game I see skaters gulp down one of those vile tasting coconut water things, but never a beer at the venue. The venue is the skater's workplace and skaters, I know, don't drink when they're working.

Now after they've completed their post-event duties, some, not very many, go to the after-party and Whoa! Look Out!

Ours generally do chocolate milk first.

And they weren't working, they were done working. The game was over, they just knocked down the biggest, baddest team in the NC, and they were celebrating.

Different leagues do different things.

Shots have been consumed in

Shots have been consumed in record speed after a particularly amazing win, or loss.

Perfect Storm

A quick look at this thread and it seems that the reports about what has happened change almost daily. That and the fact that most of WFTDA officialdom is in the middle of traveling to ECDX to oversee the games there, makes me wonder when they'll even find time to sort any of this out, anytime soon. I doubt it.

Hopefully WFTDA will have some sort of message for everyone at ECDX, even if it's just an acknowledgement that they've received the issue and are gathering information in which to make a decision sometime in the future.


I think this is the jam where the error was made....
16th jam of the second half
about 10:50 left to play.....

Retro score changes


No cheating, no doping, team sports where score was retroactively changed (and teams eliminated from advancing) due to official errors during game-play.

...except in none of those cases was the score changed.

I'm a Chelsea fan (for my sins). Our players were involved in 4 of the five goals there -- as it turns out, two were in their favour and two not.

But none of the scores were changed, despite the (in some cases) glaring cock-ups.

Sometimes stuff just goes wrong; you deal with it.

Score Change

The thing that makes this so weird is only the scoreboard had Minn winning. On paper it had the score tied 155-155. And to make it worse the error was caught before the HF made any score official. I think the only fair thing to do is to restart the bout at the jam where the error was made. There's even precedence for action like this. Just a few years ago, an error occurred in a NBA game, which wasnt found until after the game was over. It was ruled that the teams must replay the final minute or so from the moment of the error.


Just my opinion...

As a person who has absolutely no stake in either team, just a fan of Derby.

Let the Official score stand as a Tie.

Wait.. Before the pitchforks and torches are raised, hear me out.

Yes.. Derby isn't supposed to have a tie.. Well ooops.. Which is better a Tie on a sanctioned/de-sanctioned bout that is non-tournament status? Or a "Win with an*" for being contested?

No team wants to win by a technicality, nor does any team want to lose by one. There are many of possibilities as what could have happened..

1) Scorekeeper miscalculation.. we're human and they are scoring multiple passes during a powerjam on the fly. It happens.
2)Scorekeeper forgetting to write down that last 5 point pass. They added the five points to the score, but forgot to check the 'pass' box and mark a 5.
3)Jam Referee scored 5 points on Initial pass.
4) Jam Referee and Scorekeeper had a miscommunication and double posted 1 pass for 2.

My initial gut reaction is that both teams had a scoreboard viewable. I'm assuming that both scoreboards held the same score after that pass..
The time for an Official Review during the bout, is immediately prior to the next Jam. So if there was a known error Windy could have used an OR to double check the score and say "I think your Jam reff scored too many points.." but a miscalculation of points might be different as Windy might not have been having someone on their bench counting MNRG points/passes. (Note to teams.. Smart idea to have someone watching the Jam Refs/scoreboard to make sure your points and your opponents points are correct.. Don't trust those officials, those dudes are shady ;-) )

According to WFTDA standings the two teams are already 1-2 ranked, so its not like their standing will be grossly affected by a Tie, especially since its the WFTDA voting body that sets the rankings/ergo tournament invitations.

There is nothing to be 'lost' nor 'gained' by a Tie. It simply says it is what it is. Would it have been better without the scoring mishap? Or that the mishap was discovered soon enough that a tie breaking jam could have been played? Yes. But that isn't what happened. So we deal with that did.

Anyhow, that's my two cents...

This is having it's effect on EVERYBODY...

I officiated last night at an interleague bout, and BOY did this whole mess ever have an effect! We had one scorekeeper walk into this cold; he knew NOTHING about the controversy, and he got his mind well & truly blown when he was brought up to speed!

All sorts of impromptu conferences before the bouts... refs were edgy, and all NSOs were nervous. Head ref was VERY tense.

Once things got started, I can't remember a bout with so many Official Time Outs called; jam refs were skating over to verify that their hand signals have been correctly read and recorded a lot more than usual... and our refs are usually quite contientious about doing that.

In my case at least, the additional pressure caused an error... the scoring numbers were fine, but in the second half, for the first two jams I logged in the jammers for the WRONG TEAM!

That one is a nonfatal error; easily corrected when the statisticians get hold of my scoresheet. WHEW!!!

Even the jam refs were feeling the strain; after coming over to verify a zero point jam, my jam ref blew it, sort of. The jam should have been Zero, No Pass. I didn't correct him; he skated away too quickly. All I could do was log in his incorrect call and let it go.

It's gonna take a bout or two for everybody to get relaxed again and regain confidence in their own abilities and skills.

Thank Gawd the scores had a LOT of daylight in them this time; a close bout would have been too nerve wracking right now.