ECDX: Gotham Trounces Philly, 267-34
FEASTERVILLE, PA -- Gotham (#3 DNN, #1 East WFTDA) put up yet another enormous win over regional competition, severely pounding Philly (#7 DNN, #2 East WFTDA) to leave event hosts Philly with a winless ECDX for the first time. Philly only scored on 7 jams in the entire game and took their biggest loss ever to Gotham by a final of 267-34.
Gotham once again elected to start jams instantly by starting their blockers on a knee, and their pack work was giving Philly jammers a very tough time. Gotham was up 14-0 after two jams, and then the third jam began with the entire pack lining up very close to the jammer and then spending the entire 2 minutes of the jam changing position but never crossing the pivot line, meaning the jammers never were released in the 0-0.
The next four jams all began with the teams lining up right in front of the jammers, but this time with the teams taking a knee to force immediate jam starts; every time, though, it was the Gotham jammer getting out first and putting up a single scoring pass before blanking Philly. Ten minutes into the game, Gotham was up 31-0.
Gotham's focus on owning the back of the pack from the beginning created an interesting dynamic at the end of jams, as both rushed from their benches to the jammer line to take the closer position. Philly finally picked up their first point at about the 19 minute mark to make it 31-1, but it wasn't until 15 minutes were gone in the bout that they got their jammer through a full scoring pass in a 4-3 win for Shenita Stretcher over Hyper Lynx.
The score there was 39-5, but Gotham dropped a massive jam for Bonnie Thunders as Donna Matrix, Sweet Sherry Pie and B.Zerk were all over Persephone; Bonnie went 23-0 before picking up a low block major; Gotham was up 62-5 going into a Philly powerjam. That one was marked by extremely effective back of pack work from Gotham blocker Sexy Slaydie, repeatedly knocking Philly's jammer out of bounds and then tightrope-walking to barely stay in bounds herself. Philly apparently lost an opportunity to blank Gotham on the jam by not calling it though, and it went 10-7 Gotham when Bonnie came out of the box, putting Gotham up 75-12.
Gotham's total hit triple digits with 4 minutes left in the first half at 107-12, and their lead followed suit immediately afterwards a on 15-0 for Bonnie Thunders that made it 121-12. After another extremely delayed jammer start that ate a minute of clock time, Suzy Hotrod sent Gotham into the half with a dominating 136-12 advantage.
A 48-0 Gotham run in the first 9 minutes of the second half moved the score all the way to 184-12 before Philly finally had a couple of jams to excite the crowd - a 3-0 and then a big 15-0 powerjam for Teflon, which was exactly as many points as Philly had scored in the first 40 minutes in the game. That didn't presage any sort of comeback, though, as Philly only picked up 4 more points in the half as Gotham racked up 83 for a 233-point victory.
Comments
the not jam jam
So both teams took an entire jam off, right? That was probably the strangest thing I saw all weekend.
im confused! what happened
im confused! what happened when the jammers were not released! i coudnt see any of the bout...I was bouting for half of it and trying to find the IBRF for the other half.
it was only a matter of time...
"the third jam began with the entire pack lining up very close to the jammer and then spending the entire 2 minutes of the jam changing position but never crossing the pivot line, meaning the jammers never were released in the 0-0"
I knew we'd see this this season, and I can't say I'm surprised it was gotham. And that's not a knock on them, it takes 2 teams to not skate. But gotham was up, wanted to take the back, and they expected philly to skate, get the no pack call, and then have to reposition. I give philly credit for doing the right thing and not playing that game in hopes that the anger of the crowd would convince gotham to skate. But this needs to stop. 2nd whistle 5 seconds after the first - we can call it the 5-second rule. Sadly we're going to see too much of this in the regionals and championships this year.
THANK YOU
I am so sick of this nonsense... this is not the derby I signed up to play. I hope that the rules are changed to correct this very soon.
why even wait five seconds?
As many have observed, why not just release all skaters on a single whistle?
Let's play roller derby.
What says the jammers will skate?
If the two packs clearly want to have dominance and not skate, wouldn't a "one whistle to start them all" eventually come to the occasional 2 minutes of no skating as well? Why wouldn't the jammers just wait behind the jammer line for a more ideal pack situation?
The way I look at it, the period clock runs between jams. That means we are in game play at that time and all this strategizing and positioning is part of the game. Rarely it is going to turn into a game of chicken where no one skates. But it will happen.
When the game clock stops at the fourth whistle, then, perhaps, making it more of a forced race would make sense. In the meantime, I happen to love this stuff!
Re: What says the jammers will skate?
We've all seen situations where a jammer hangs back or even backs up & waits for her blockers to clear the way a bit, but have you ever seen them wait around for an entire jam once the jammer whistle blows?
Re: What says the jammers will skate?
No, but until this weekend I never saw a pack intentionally jockey and position to burn two minutes either. :)
Philly wanted positional dominance and Gotham wanted to burn period time. Their disparate goals had a common effect. My only point is the "one whistle to start them all" does not necessarily kill the potential for a 2 minute time burn. We can ponder forever now why any team would want to do that - but 6/24/11 people probably couldn't conceive of both packs wanting to kill two minutes.
I think it does
The only reason the teams can do the time burn is because they don't have to worry about the jammers. If the jammers are released neither jammer is going to not skate as there is nothing to be gained and a everything to lose. But if we look at rules as an evolution we need to start with the current problem. If that solution leads to more unintentional problems well, we'll just revisit then. And honestly I think we'll see many more teams taking a knee for a no pack call/immediate jammer release. If that becomes common might as well just move to 1 whistle.
yep
makes sence to me, otherwise we will be playing bouts on front of skaters from nearby leagues and no one else
i cannot think of a single
i cannot think of a single situation where, if i'm on the team that's behind, i'd willingly waste 2 minutes of play.
i'm sure there are a lot more factors to this that i am missing but i just don't see this becoming a more common occurrence.
It was early in the game
The score was still close so Philly probably wanted to actually shorten the game at that point since they weren't getting blown out yet.
There has got to be something to stop this. One whistle will just create another stupid situation where the blockers start every jam 2 inches in front of the jammers so we never see a moving start again. You'd have to add even more rules to prevent that.
I just think there should be a 5-10 second delay clock and any blocker that hasn't passed the pivot line at that point gets a delay of game penalty.
That's one of the better solutions I have heard.
The biggest problem I have is illegal positional blocking from a stationary position. I have said it over and over...I have no problem with slow derby. I have a problem with STOP derby. There are already rules against stationary positional blocking that have just been turned a blind eye to.
saving face strategy?
Even still, that's like saying "It's okay that we're only losing by a couple of points as long as we keep them from gaining more." Not a very winning strategy... I guess I can see a point if you really believe that you will just be slaughtered if the jam starts... but then why would you put a lineup like that out on the track?
I'm not defending it
I'm just giving an example of why a losing team would want to execute that strategy.
It's the same reason the shot clock was invented in basketball. Games had devolved into an execution of 500 passes on each offensive possession before a shot was even attempted because there was nothing limiting their ability to do so. The winning team did it to stay in the lead and the losing team, if they were greatly outmatched, did it to keep the score close which gave them a chance to get lucky and hit a couple key shots at the end of the game to win it.
It isn't a winning strategy but it's a strategy that gives an overmatched team a better shot at winning. If they could have stalled every jam until the last jam of the game, Philly could have won if they scored three grand slams since it was 14-0. That didn't happen, so they got blown out by hundreds of points and it was impossible for them to win on the last jam.
Agreed. Best solution offered.
I agree, this is one of the better solutions. Making the pack move over the pivot line by 8-10 seconds will do 2 things. Prevent players from standing in from of a jammer, casuing slow or stopped derby from the onset, and make the blockers actually skate forward, and be moving. This will allow the jammer to show off their skating skills, not lateral stepping skills, from the very start.
Basketball developed another rule, in addition to the shot clock, where a team must advance the ball over the half-court line within 8 second (pros) and 10-seconds (college) or else they lose possession. This sped up the game, forced action and interaction between players, which in turn created a better, more enjoyable game to WATCH.
Remember, we all need to be thinking about the fans, and how they should enjoy watching this sport. If we continue to build a sport plagued with teams exploiting the rules and their weaknesses, we will continue to turn off fans.
Fast derby, or rather skilled, skating forward derby sells tickets.
follow up thoughts
For me I don't have a strong preference to a solution. But my thoughts on proposals:
* single whistle - I'm fine with this, but I like the idea of releasing the blockers first (3-5 seconds) so they can skate into position. Though with so many teams taking a knee to get the jam to start immediately maybe this is how the players want to play.
* delay of game - I'm fine with this, especially if a major penalty (or no minors ruleset). This will mean that all blockers will skate past the line. It means more to keep track of for the refs which I think is a disadvantage. I don't think this will cease stopped derby because a team could skate right over the line and stop if that's there strategy.
* timed whistle - Obviously I'm fine with this because I suggested it. It's very little to keep track of. It doesn't force the blockers to skate but I'm fine with that. It would mean blockers could still line up directly in front of the jammers.
I'm ok with slow derby at times and jammers having to show off skills in dealing with a slow or stopped pack as well as a fast pack. What bothers me is the teams doing nothing while burning time for strategic reasons. In a very real sense in these cases the jam hasn't really started because the blockers are not doing anything and the jammers are not allowed to skate. Though I'm not opposed to rules that would create a faster game.
other possibilities
A few more ideas, some with more merit than others depending on one's gameplay goals:
* Scrap the running period clock. Shorten periods to, oh, let's say 20 minutes -- but the period clock stops between every jam until the jammers go. (Delay-of-game penalties then become more necessary so as to prevent teams from giving themselves breathers.)
* Don't start the penalty box clocks until the jammers start. This should eliminate a fair amount of tedious waiting-around-for-one-more-teammate-to-exit-the-box.
Combination of #1 and #2 above - fairly easy to implement, and removes a lot of the existing incentives to not skate. Plus...
* More severely punish direction-of-gameplay violations. The 'no minors' beta ruleset lists all direction-of-gameplay violations as a [major] penalty. The start-of-jam standstill would be an extremely risky proposition under such a rule.
* Only allow players to completely stop on the track if they are ahead of the engagement zone, if they are in front of a 'no pack' situation, or if they are being blocked. Coming to a stop within a legal engagement zone would draw a major unless you're responding to someone's else's block (active or positional).
(Of course, such a proposal would effectively abolish the 'draw the cut and run clockwise' game, which is either a happy or unhappy side effect, depending on your P.O.V.)
* Require blockers to 'clear the starting box' in X seconds -- but, to keep it from being an ugly scrum for a very small amount of real estate right in front of the starting box, dictate specific legal starting configurations on the track, similar to a basketball tip-off or hockey face-off. (Hmm, ever wonder why those sports adopted such pre-play positioning rules....?)
Even with actual marks on the track. This idea probably wouldn't fly, but it might inspire a better one.
* consider the OSDA rule allowing a pivot to take off and become the new jammer during the first pass. It might encourage more pack speed in the first pass, because a pack needs to defend on two fronts off the bat. Admittedly I've never seen this in action, but it's certainly an idea.
* Go radically old-school -- ROLLING START. Jam/Period clock only starts when head ref decides the right personnel #s are on the track and that there's appropriate space between the pack and the two jammers. A lot more visual stimulus for fans between jams!
not first time
In may Charm City tryed this as well, good idea if ya don't want that jammer running off the line
MADE
Glad the MADE rules prevent this sort of thing.
* consider the OSDA rule allowing a pivot to take off and become the new jammer during the first pass. It might encourage more pack speed in the first pass, because a pack needs to defend on two fronts off the bat. Admittedly I've never seen this in action, but it's certainly an idea.
Same in MADE. The pack sometimes speeds up but usually just forces more blocking as pivots and jammers can be coming and going from anywhere. One whistle works nicely
I didn't see this game or the
I didn't see this game or the stop jam, but given that the jammers can't take off til the last in pack crosses the pivot line, could you change the rules/make an addendum to say that the jammers may start after X amount of seconds or when the last in pack crosses the pivot line, whichever comes 1st?
Not sure if it would appropriately address the issue, but this seems to be a big thing now similar to when both jammers were in the box. annoying for spectators and boring for the pack as well.
Can we now turn our attention
Can we now turn our attention to Windy City's wacky "horizontal action" play from BrewHaHa, where their pivot laid face down on the floor, touching her fingertips to the jammer line, presumably in an attempt to incur illegal procedure penalties against those skaters not lined up behind her hips?
that sounds like planking?
that sounds like planking?
Huh?
I didn't see it, and I don't understand.
4.2.3 - Non-Pivot Blocker Starting Positions: Blockers line up behind the Pivots as demarked by the hips. If a Pivot is not on the Pivot line, Non-Pivot Blockers are not required to line up behind her.
I was just about to ask about
I was just about to ask about that. :) If she's not on the pivot line, it shouldn't matter.
She is on the line!
It does not it state that pivot must have her SKATES on the line. If her finger is touching she is on the line and all other Non Pivot Blockers must line up behind said Pivots hips. Same would also go for a 3 Point stance starting position.
Sure, but...
Sure, but in this scenario, revnorb is talking about the pivot starting on the JAM line. That's a bit of a difference!
I suppose
I suppose that she might have extremely long arms, giving her a 30' reach so she can be touching BOTH lines.
Ha, yes, i misspoke. The
Ha, yes, i misspoke. The PIVOT line. Doi.
But...
Isn't she out of play? Why would blockers need to line up behind someone that isn't in play?
right.
all these various rules related posts should be consolidated and stickied. this was a big weekend and shit is all over the place up in here! plus much of this discussion is ongoing...
as a fan i just want to see jams start more like a football game: the teams line up in a formation that suits them, the whistle blows, play begins...HOW a team packs up is up to them of course. its WAAAAAAAAAAAY too inconsistent right now and for most of the casual fans ive met at bouts its incomprehensible. this confusion detracts greatly from their enjoyment of a bout and they probably wont come to another one. clearly this is bad for a growing sport.
derby doesnt need to be "dumbed down" it needs a more concise ruleset allowing the players natural athleticism and teamwork to be the determing factor in a win/loss. these loopholes/counter-loopholes are getting tedious indeed.
While I agree
That the starts situations need to be fixed to make it more consistant for the sake of growing the sport as a whole, I think loopholes/Counter loopholes are at the heart of football and what makes it such an interesting sport. The NFL changes and tweaks it's rules every year to 'fix' the game so it is a better sport to sell to the fans and those rules have been around for a lot longer then the WFTDA's. This sort of thing will always happen as long as there are rules that govern the sport. Teams will always look for any advantage be it talent or rules to give them the edge over other top level Teams.
You bring in fans with gameplay that seems simple on the surface and involves fast paced action, You keep fans around in the long term with gameplay that is actually very complex when you dig a little bit. This allows people to feel like there is always more to learn and you will see something new.
When I was a child I watched the NFL for big hits and amazing catches. Now I watch the NFL and am more interested in the complexity of the game from reciever routes to coverage patterns of the secondary to blitz packages. The big hits and amazing catches are just the bonus.
This
You bring in fans with gameplay that seems simple on the surface and involves fast paced action, You keep fans around in the long term with gameplay that is actually very complex when you dig a little bit. This allows people to feel like there is always more to learn and you will see something new.
I've introduced dozens of people to roller derby. Some people liked it and some people didn't. But nobody ever complained that it's too complex. I find it hard to believe that all these people who claim that the complexity of the sport is driving tons of fans away actually have such a vastly different experience than I have had.
I fully agree what your
I fully agree what your saying but I often find that people who claim that the sport is too complex or boring for a casual fan at this point are arguing to blow the whole thing up and dumb it down while I would argue that it just needs minor tweaks to be fixed.
However, I do believe that while the no minors change is pretty major it would be a huge step in making the game more accessible and exciting to a casual sports fan.
About the dumbing down faction.
I fully agree what your saying but I often find that people who claim that the sport is too complex or boring for a casual fan at this point are arguing to blow the whole thing up and dumb it down while I would argue that it just needs minor tweaks to be fixed.
Some of those folks have preconceived notions of what sort of "a very simple game" they want to turn it into. Or back into. Should I have capitalized that and underlined it rather than put it into quotes?
educating new fans
its not the "complexity of the sport" thats the problem. you see, exploiting loopholes and abusing the spirit of the ruleset is not clever, its obnoxious.
all this laying down, taking a knee, lining up behind the jammer, "no jam" jams, delays of the game, etc and what-have-you are out of control. we are all huge derby geeks and many of us find it confusing/annoying. trust me. your average fan doesnt stand a chance.
Data
Are you speculating or do you have data? I have not had anybody say "I liked it, but I found it too confusing to follow, so I'm not going to come back." I've had people say "I found it confusing at first, but by the end I was starting to pick it up and I had a great time. I have to come back again."
But I assume that my data is only a small sample of all the fans out there. So, are people out there finding fans who are making statements like the first one?
lol
nobody has hard data on this, guy. the last and only wftda survey i participated in was demographic information (presumably to sell to advertisers).
ive never seen a fan survey about the bouts themselves.
Presumably
But presumably you talk to people. People are always saying that fans are being driven away from the sport because of the complexity of the rules. How many do you know that have been driven away? How many have you heard of?
Not trying to be a dick, I'm actually trying to get a sense for what other people's experiences with this are, since my own personal experience does not reflect this conclusion.
The average fan
By all means, speak your mind if you like something, hate something, are confused by something, or desire a rule change to counter an "obvious" travesty in the WFTDA ruleset (whether or not anybody else agrees that it's "obvious").
But an awful lot of people seem to be quite confident that they know what "the average fan", be it a generic sports fan or a derby fan, can or can't understand, does or doesn't like, or what will or won't make them ever return to a roller derby bout.
How do you know?
for brad and n8
dudes. people deeply involved with derby cant make heads or tails of all this. right? am i expected to quantify this somehow? get real. im going with my gut here and my gut tells me that if i went downtown, paid $10 to park, paid $15 for a ticket and $5 for a beer and $5 for a hot dog, found a seat and the whistle blew to start the bout AND THEN EVERYONE STOOD THERE AND DID NOTHING FOR TWO MINUTES i'd be pissed off. i probably wouldnt come back.
But at least the skaters had fun
dudes. people deeply involved with derby cant make heads or tails of all this. right? am i expected to quantify this somehow? get real. im going with my gut here and my gut tells me that if i went downtown, paid $10 to park, paid $15 for a ticket and $5 for a beer and $5 for a hot dog, found a seat and the whistle blew to start the bout AND THEN EVERYONE STOOD THERE AND DID NOTHING FOR TWO MINUTES i'd be pissed off. i probably wouldnt come back.
Yeah, but the most important thing is that the skaters have the most fun. After all, it's THEIR sport, right? Who cares what the crowd thinks?
I'll leave it up to the readers to figure out if that statement was sarcastic or not.
sarcasm not required
I can't speak to the feelings or opinions of "major league" athletes (as in MLB or NBA or other sports that draw lots of fans and money) but an informal survey of friends who play soccer and hockey yielded these results:
Most of them don't pay much attention to discussions on the internet.
The fact that we discuss such things ad nauseam probably has a lot more to do with the whole DIY/"for the skaters" ethic we hold so dear.
What Moxxxie said
I think some of y'alls overthink things (understatement of the year). It's okay, we're all a little overly obsessed with roller derby. I ain't hating on you nerds.
But for an average fan, I don't think they give two shits about one weird jam where no one was skating.
They might've been in the bathroom.
They might've been drunk outside.
They might've been chatting with their friends during it all.
They might've sat there and said "WTF" and then drank another beer and moved on.
I would venture to say most fans are casual enough where weird circumstances like laying down behind the pivot line or doing the Windy lining up behind the jammer line thang doesn't mean ANYTHING to them, so it wouldn't incur enough ire where they demand their dollars back.
All of my friends who go to my league's bouts are very casual fans. Meaning, they just go for the atmosphere, a fun bout, booze, and good company. They follow the basics of derby - they know no elbows or punching or fighting and they know how a jammer scores points - but anything more complex than that, they're not going to be bothered with. It doesn't disrupt their enjoyment. They'll come up to me after bouts and tell me how the girl with the white and black facepaint was really f*cking scary and wow that blonde jammer was fast! That was a fun bout! That's usually what they say. I had a friend get so drunk at one of the bouts that he accidentally left at halftime, thinking it was the end of the bout. They don't mull over these circumstances that derby enthusiasts do.
Yes, you hardcore fans, you are the true enthusiasts, the ones who care just as much as we skaters do, the ones who keep our skates rolling.
But let's not lump in the casual fans who come to maybe 2 bouts per season.
I'm positive that if B.A.D. were to discontinue our B.A.D. Beer + Shot special (only $5!), our fans would be FAR more upset and less inclined to come to our bouts than if we didn't refine these extremely trivial rules.
YES!
This!
In general, I think a lot of fans are “familiar” with sports, but actually don’t know the rules as well as players. They might do equally poorly if questioned about the nitty-gritty of other sports, and they probably don't really care about the nitty-gritty anyway.
Have you had to explain “love” in tennis to someone who has never watched a match? This is confusing and turns fans off! Why do other sports stop the game to issue penalties? It's totally ruining football, soccer, and basketball, because the players stand around for minute and nothing happens!
Quick: Can you quickly explain the difference between a safety and a touch back in football? In hockey, do you know when icing is waived off? Can you describe in accurate detail how an equestrian competition or a sumo match proceeds and is judged? Which is worth more: a double lutz or a level 2 combination spin with a change of foot? Would that stop you from going to see or enjoying any of these sports?
Major league baseball rules are longer, and football rules are more baroque than WFTDA's. As for fans who don't get it, I just think a lot of it is cultural acclimation. Downs in football really only make sense to fans because of the ubiquity of the Superbowl, high school football, and instruction from fathers, little league coaches, and/or condescending boyfriends.
People who watch roller derby will get the basics after they’ve been to a bout or two. They will become familiar with the more obscure rules once they’ve played the sport, if they make an effort to learn, or when roller derby games and analysis are all over the airwaves and ESPN with voiceovers, box scores, and instant replays.
Until then, they'll enjoy the atmosphere, impressive skating moves, and spending time with their friends/family.
analogy fail?
Subject line was the spoiler - I'm not a fan of your analogies.
First-time derby attendee:
"I came to watch roller derby. It's where people skate around and hit each other. Hey, why aren't they skating around? Why are they lying down on the ground? What? Because a jam starts immediately when there is no pack, and a pack requires players from both teams to be skating in proximity, and if you're on the ground you are not actually skating? But then they have to stand up right away? Wait... What? Back that up for me."
versus:
First-time tennis attendee:
"What is this funny 'LOVE' word? Oh, it means 'zero'? Got it. That's cute. Pass the crumpets."
versus:
First-time sumo attendee:
"Why are they throwing salt on the rink? Ahh, as a traditional religious purification ritual? Got it. That's neat. Pass the wasabi."
These are three VERRRRY different fan reactions.
I don't sense that people are complaining about the complexity or length or whimsicality or idiosyncratic nature of the rules. I believe they're complaining about the the inanity, the anti-competitiveness, and the un-entertaining nature of certain specific isolated behaviors that the current rules inadvertently permit because they were not forseen at the time the rules were crafted.
NASCAR rules are INCREDIBLY complex. But ... it's an incredibly popular sport which makes sense to anyone who walks in through door because no one is never rewarded for NOT driving fast and turning left.
The fact that a roller derby team can be legitimately motivated to intentionally NOT DRIVE (er, skate) AT ALL, en masse, is a big, big problem. Yes every sport has its 'down time.' (football, golf, baseball...) But those are during moments when nothing is SUPPOSED to happen. When the action is on, STUFF IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN.
Especially this day and age with you skateboarding kids with your Ataris and your BookFace and your 23-skidoos and your pants hanging below your butts and your short attention spans.
Pace lap
In NASCAR they have one.
Bollocks
First time derby fan here. I went to a bout. I've seen rugby played, I've seen (and played) women's netball, hockey and football. It bores the shit out of me. I saw derby because I was with a friend.
I am not a true enthusiast. I don't know one rule from another. I have no idea what's happening, what's good and what's bad other than the reaction of the crowd, what the announcer (can be heard to ) says and thankfully, what my friend explains is going on. And before she said one word about slow skating & strategy, I wanted to know why the hell I was watching a bunch of women stand around like it was half-time. I saw a handful of people drinking at the bout I went to, not the majority and I honestly think advocating that casual fans drink and not need to understand the point of the game is to reverse a great deal of the growth derby has had within the last decade, five years and two years.
And I also believe that if any other sport, the players decided to simply stop play to intimidate one another or to hold off scoring from the other side, the fans would be perfectly entitled (and seen to be entitled by the players) to be confused -- because isn't the point of strategy the ability to get things done by doing them well, instead of just standing there?
Yes, you will have your hardcore fans. I saw them. A number of them were derby players, or bootcamp derby enthusiasts, or relatives & friends of players. But you will also have people like me who will give my money over and see what it's like out of curiosity and want to know more about what's going on. I've wound up researching the fuck out of this sport, seeing as much as I can and it never fails to irritate the shit out of me when slow/stop skating happens. I want to know where the fierce, intelligent athletes went -- surely if you have faith in your team's athletic ability, you don't need to essentially halt gameplay to get what you want done?
"Boring" strategy
...I also believe that if any other sport, the players decided to simply stop play to intimidate one another or to hold off scoring from the other side, the fans would be perfectly entitled (and seen to be entitled by the players) to be confused -- because isn't the point of strategy the ability to get things done by doing them well, instead of just standing there?
Well ... no, not necessarily.
- Intentional walks in baseball
- Clinching in boxing
- Taking a knee rather than running a kick back in football
- Intentional fouls in basketball
- Quarterback taking a knee to kill the clock late in a football game
- Icing in hockey
I've wound up researching the fuck out of this sport, seeing as much as I can and it never fails to irritate the shit out of me when slow/stop skating happens.
This doesn't seem to track very well with your opening assertion that you're a casual derby fan and have no idea what's happening (by definition, casual fans of something do not research the fuck out of it), but let's pass over that.
I think that when talking about "slow/stop skating" is happening, a distinction needs to be made between a jam never starting (as in Gotham / Philly and more recently Arch Rival / Grand Raggidy) and slow/stop skating during the course of an active jam. These are very different things. In the first case, you're talking about killing the clock without action, period. In the second case, you're talking about maximizing your opportunity to score points.
I could see an argument being made that in the first case the teams have a "sporting" obligation to get the jam started and prove their superiority in the course of gameplay (although it is still almost always in the interest of the leading team to let a full 2 minutes be killed if the other team is for some reason willing to let that happen). In the second case, though, you're basically asking one team to give up a strategic advantage for the sole purpose of making the game more exciting to watch for a specific subset of fans (those who do not like or appreciate that specific strategy).
If you have problems with a team doing what is effective rather than what is exciting, I respectfully submit that your problem is more with the rules of the game than with the team.
action
except:
an intentional walk is an action
clinching is a defensive posture and an action
taking a knee is a rule created for safety reasons (also an action)
intentional fouling in bball...action!
qb taking a knee burns the play clock and is a right of the possessing team only
icing...i think you get the point.
all of these plays exist within the rules of their games. they are not loopholes. they also add to the games.
I question your definitions
How are you defining action to make taking a knee count in football be one and slow derby not count? There's a lot more going on in slow derby than there is when a guy grabs a ball and kneels.
How are you defining intentional fouls as a play that exists within the rules?
...
you are not very good at this.
Thank you
for answering my questions.
sigh
sorry. i was at work and thought you were trolling. in football, when a team is ahead, the right to take a knee is earned by the offense by beating the defense and gaining first downs thus forcing the losing team to burn all of its time outs in order to preserve the gameclock. once all the timeouts are used the losing team's defense is unable to stop the clock meaning that by running the ball the winning team is able to "run out" the remainder of the gameclock and preserve the victory. the actual "taking of the knee" is a safety rule so that instead of having to run another play and smash into the line again (very dangerous) the winning team simply kneels down and concedes the yards but keeps the gameclock running.
your bball question is literal in that the rules and consequences for fouls are very clearly defined and are an intregal part of the game of basketball.
my overall point is that the scenarios jfm described are not loopholes in those sports rulesets.
i think derby needs rules addressing delay of game issues. even baseball has it and there isnt a clock!
Eh.
I continue to disagree with your argument, but not in ways that will lead to interesting discussion, so I'm going to let it go.
i think derby needs rules addressing delay of game issues. even baseball has it and there isnt a clock!
On this point, we are absolutely agreed.
Different fans like different things, a good game appeals to all
Different fans like different things, a good game appeals to them all. In video game design, there is a concept of, "Easy to Play, Hard to Master." This is what WFTDA should strive for when making updates to their rule system.
There are some fans that understand the basics: Skate, turn left, that chick with the star is sort of important.
When the "Hard to Master" moments creep in, and those fans ask around to their neighbors about what's going on. It's at that moment a new type of fan steps up, one who knows the rules, and can provide help. This is a win - win. For the new fan, s/he realizes there's "more to it" then the BS they saw on TV in the 70s and 80s. "This really is a real sport" moment. For the established fan, they get a little pat on the back for being the "smart" one of the group. The street cred that proves that they've been following Derby for longer then others. Social Status. Sports conversation ensues. People meet new friends. Flat track roller derby becomes a sport where, from a fan perspective, there's more then meets the eye. This is Roller Derby.
When skaters start to throw temper tantrums because they lost the game for not being strategically smart enough to win and rules should change to cater to them...
... well, glad I'm not seeing you play at Championships.
~rzr
I love Razor
When skaters start to throw temper tantrums because they lost the game for not being strategically smart enough to win and rules should change to cater to them...
... well, glad I'm not seeing you play at Championships.
Can I repost this? I've been trying to come up with a respectable answer to the whining of Persephone on RDIT.
I would also add fans and announcers. Announcers need to step up their game knowledge if they can't explain the gameplay, it's sort of their job to promote derby and they do a poor job if they don't keep up with what's going on.
As for the fans, skaters should do their best to get them a seat so they can see the game and an affordable snack and beverage. If skaters listened to fans about rules, there would still be fighting, real and fake, and a penalty wheel in derby, maybe even an alligator pit.
You're bringing up the penalty wheel?
Really? That's hyperbole. We're not talking about bringing that back, we're talking about rules loopholes that make the game boring for spectators that might be fixed by consensus. Meanwhile you think that employing these strategies makes someone smarter than their opponents, and their fans. Your contempt for the people who pay at the door of your venue is repugnant.
I reserve
I reserve my contempt for people who say they speak for all fans. For people who say if you don't change a particular rule they don't like everyone will leave. Listening to anyone who barely understands the game about rule changes is silly. Classic roller derby was created by literally listening to the audience. If they cheered about something skaters gave them more of it, if the audience booed they did less of it. What was created was a TV show of “heroes and heels” not a sport. One needs to listen to fans, but do so very carefully, sport education often is the proper solution, not rule changes.
If you are a competitor and you know your opponent is going to employ a certain strategy and you do not spend any time coming up with an effective counter to it, you're being dumb, and deserve to lose. Whine that that strategy should be outlawed because your too lazy to counter it, and you earn my contempt.
Can't Disagree
...with any audience education initiative. Well put.
I don't want to get off on the wrong foot here, I just think we need to find ways of presenting the sport that respect the spectator rather than looking for reasons to dismiss their opinions. However well-earned your scorn might be, what good does it serve?
For the record, I'm not calling for a rule change. That's up to the voting members. I'm not even asking teams that wish to employ these strategies to stop - of course people should be cooking up counter-strategies. I'm just saying that I think it's not much fun.
Southbay, good on you for defending the right of the skaters to determine how the game is meant to be played. But really, are you actually saying that two minutes of psychological shuffling is great, compelling stuff and you want to see more? That's fine too; we can differ.
old timers
its ok slim. the old timers on this board dont seem to care for new opinions and get quite defensive. no need to backpedal or sugar coat your opinion...let 'er rip!
your gut feeling is probably right...who wants to pay their (increasingly) hard earned $$$ to see girls just standing around on $800 speed skates?
*crickets*
the only people who "own derby" are the skaters! as fans all we can do is voice our opinions...whether or not certain people think that we are smart enough or know the game well enough or whatever. snobs are always poor ambassadors anyway. people are passionate about this topic and that is GOOD FOR DERBY! the worst thing that can happen to a sport is no one talking about it. (the "non-jam" of sports talk lol)
That's been my point all along
Why does an open discussion about rules and gameplay hit a defensive nerve with some folks? I think its elitism. I can always respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it. Its the condecending "smartest 'guy' in the room" attitude that most of us can do without.
I'm not a skater...Disagree
If "strategically smart" results in alienating your fans, then skaters have a right to complain. If its only about winning and losing, you can stand with your rear end poked out on skates in an empty barn if you want. That's up to you. Most fans that showed up expected a little more than that. What's sad is that the teams that are "strategically smart" could win just as easily on their athletic abilities without exploiting the loopholes.
If teams continue to play like this and nothing is done...then the derby fans that are sitting at home rather than attend will be saying in a very clear voice
"...well, glad I'm not seeing you play at Championships."
casual fans of other sports
if i went downtown, paid $10 to park, paid $15 for a ticket and $5 for a beer and $5 for a hot dog, found a seat and the whistle blew to start the bout AND THEN EVERYONE STOOD THERE AND DID NOTHING FOR TWO MINUTES i'd be pissed off.
Sounds like minor league baseball to me.
x2
i have no idea what you are talking about right now. please read a thread before you comment.
um
The scenario that makes you so pissed? Minor league baseball. People love it. Though the average ticket price is $8 rather than $15.
meh
i wasnt going to respond at all, but...what does baseball have to do with anything? and yes if instead of throwing the first pitch, the pitcher just stood there holding the ball doing nothing not many people would continue to go see baseball games. but, baseball HAS NO CLOCK so it doesnt matter.
happy late 4th of july er'body!!!
Intentionally walking a batter.
Would be a better analogy.
not quite
an intentional walk isnt a stall tactic or delay. it is part of gameplay not a loophole.
Roller derby vs. "Ruler Derby"
its not the "complexity of the sport" thats the problem. you see, exploiting loopholes and abusing the spirit of the ruleset is not clever, its obnoxious.
all this laying down, taking a knee, lining up behind the jammer, "no jam" jams, delays of the game, etc and what-have-you are out of control. we are all huge derby geeks and many of us find it confusing/annoying. trust me. your average fan doesnt stand a chance.
This is exactly what I'm busting a vein about. A lot of people focus on the letter of the law and how certain rules apply or don't apply in certain situations to strange happenings on the track. If you're one of them, get your nose out of the rulebook and open your eyes to what's happening on the track.
I'm starting to get the feeling too many people have blind faith in the rules and are citing rule after rule to try to justify things. There's a difference between "how do the current rules explain this so we can correctly call it if it happens again," and, "this is happening because the current rules don't work, so the rules need to be updated." Even though rules may cover extreme tactics, that doesn't mean the rules work for what's best for the spirit and original intent of roller derby.
I know that there was no way the WFTDA envisioned or intended the kind of tactics we're seeing now when they wanted to make rules for a legitimate and fair roller derby game. But if someone likes that kind of stuff, that's fine. If someone justifies these tactics with tired words like "strategy" and "complexity," that's fine, too. But I know what makes common sports sense and what doesn't.
A lot of what I see doesn't make sense. And those with their noses in the rulebook have done little or nothing to convince me otherwise.
Roller derby vs. "Ruler Derby"
Hear! hear! my sentiments Windyman...it is always so interesting when a WFTDA ref comes and refs a MADE game (I hate to keep mentioning us, but its like we are on the otherside of the looking glass staring in at your strange experiment). And when a WFTDA skater comes and plays with us its like a kid in a candy store.
Seriously, WFTDA rules drive me crazy, but mainly only for the fact that I would love to see some of your skaters tear it up in our game. And I think a lot of WFTDA ladies would love to put a hurting on the guys in our co-ed games, too (I understand the woman's only association aspect, I do, I barrel raced for years in a strict no man's world, so that doesn't bother me at all.)
If it seems like we are ragging on your rules its only because many of us feel like we're a kid standing on the sidelines jumping up and down and waving their arms going "look at me, look at me"...We are already playing a game that talks about all the fixes you want to do...and we're telling you it works!
This whole thing is so interesting for me...it is like one huge sociology experiment. I am so curious to see how it all pans out...the history of this sport is so crazy.
it's kind of like taking a knee
"Isn't she out of play? Why would blockers need to line up behind someone that isn't in play?"
So just like taking a knee prior to the first whistle, you don't have to line up "in-play" ... the tricky thing about these pivot rules though, is that as long as a part of the pivot is touching the line, other skaters have to line up behind that pivot's hips. The rules currently do not mention said pivot has to be "in-play" so they can be laying down and finger touching the line. It's just another example of where the rules probably need more specific language in a future update.
Three simple changes to end this madness...
After watching all weekend and talking with various people I think these three simple changes would end this madness and help make the game more interesting for the fans.
1. A back pack line that is 10 feet in front of the jammers, anyone in front of the pivot line or behind the back pack line is considered in front of the pack and gets a minor false start that improves to a major when they fail to yield. (If minors are ever disposed of then it's an automatic major and poodling won't exist anymore anyways.)
2. Start the jammers 5 seconds after the pack. An immediate start would remove the interesting portion of starts where teams jockey for position prior to the jammer whistle. This would remove the stall starts.
3. Any blocker considered out of play at the first start whistle is waved off the track. This will remove the starting on a knee to get the jammers started portion of the starts which was just implemented to combat the stall. This would also have the bonus of removing the strategy of the pivot lining up and stretching as far back as possible on their fingertips.
Also, the origin of the pivot doing the laying down stretch out from the pivot line is the Denver/Rose game at wild west showdown this year. Denver pulled it out on us and it was definitely the first I had ever seen it. I believe, to be more specific about who came up with that one, it was Akers that was doing it the entire game.
I don't think Philly's showing against Gotham is indicative of them being that weak or no longer the two seed in the East. I think it was more about the strength of Gotham and also what seemed to me to be a failure to adjust and step away from fighting for the back of the pack right in front of the jammers which just plays into the strength of their jammers and Bonnie Thunders specifically who will get through a dead stopped pack every time.
Feedback
3. Any blocker considered out of play at the first start whistle is waved off the track. This will remove the starting on a knee to get the jammers started portion of the starts which was just implemented to combat the stall. This would also have the bonus of removing the strategy of the pivot lining up and stretching as far back as possible on their fingertips.
Small problem with this. If someone from team A knocks down the skater from team B before the whistle starts, team A only received a penalty minute while team B is short a skater for the entire jam. There will exist situations where this is a preferred strategy.
There's also the bigger problem of how it could be easy to force a team to have fewer than 2 blockers... maybe even 0
Also, the origin of the pivot doing the laying down stretch out from the pivot line is the Denver/Rose game at wild west showdown this year. Denver pulled it out on us and it was definitely the first I had ever seen it. I believe, to be more specific about who came up with that one, it was Akers that was doing it the entire game.
I've seen home team skaters doing variations of this for a long time. Never fully laid out, but down on their hands and skates so that they can get back into play quickly.
Hadn't thought of that...
How about putting the word intentionally in there. Any player lining up intentionally out of play prior to the first jam whistle will be waved off the track.
Three different simple changes
The rules already allow a player knocked out of bounds by an opponent before the whistle to skate in the jam. It wouldn't be hard to extend that wording to cover skaters knocked out of play. A bigger problem is that in the whole-team-behind-the-jammers scenario, all eight blockers are out of play and have to be waved off the track. I'm also curious why you want to move the jammers up 20 feet.
The three changes I would suggest instead are to extend the existing destroying the pack penalty to cover actions taken before the whistle, require the pivot to be upright in order to be considered "on the line", and have the jammers' start whistle blow when current rules apply or after some set length of time. (I suggest starting with 3 seconds, but it's the sort of detail that needs to be worked out in play.)
origin issue
i don't suggest that i know when the first pivot laid on the floor and touched the pivot line with her hand, but texas used it at the 2010 regionals.
That just goes to show you
That just goes to show you how observant i am, because i would have been watching that bout. I probably just thought she was looking for spare change or something at the time.
I like the idea of having a
I like the idea of having a line 10 feet in front of the jammers that blockers can't cross. I also like the idea of having the jammer whistle go off after a set amount of time, though I think they should be started after 30 seconds. I like being able to stall off of the line to run down a teammates penalty time, and I don't mind watching it happen either. 30 seconds would give teams time to implement the strategy, but still insures 1.5 minutes of action.
On the topic of slow starts, if the team not stalling doesn't skate forward the cause the no-pack and the jammer start, then that's their own damn fault.
Also I'd like to state how much I HATE when pivots lay down on the floor. It's so stupid. Next time it happens to me I'll straddle them.
I think you meant "ECDX:
I think you meant "ECDX: Gotham Makes Things Rocky For Philly, 267-34"
Wordy rules
So, since this comes up regularly, and it just came up again today, I thought I'd share.
According to a commenter on the Facebook page for Roller Derby Rule of the Day (RDRotD): "according to ESPN magazine there are 74,141 words in the NFL rulebook." RDRotD replied with: "the WFTDA rulebook has approximately 25,453 words, give or take a few dozen."
Now, these are probably apples to oranges as far as the type of content within the NFL rulebook, but I found that interesting nonetheless. I encourage anyone to actually do a more thorough comparison and/or include other sports.
And of course, that doesn't mean that derby should be happy adding more and more rules, just because the NFL has more (or if derby ever surpasses the NFL by this or some other measure, it shouldn't feel obligated to suddenly cut down to fewer). Derby needs to strive for the solution that is best for derby. I'm just sharing something I found interesting.
let them eat beer
We have the best idea yet for people who are frustrated with teams exploiting loopholes in the rules, not skating or what have you: DRINK MORE BEER.
Seriously! If you are at a derby bout and you are not having a good time, you are doing it wrong.
love,
-Moxxxie
HELLARAD
sometimes derby is not about skating
www.wearehellarad.com
here, here.
DRINK MORE BEER.
Seriously! If you are at a derby bout and you are not having a good time, you are doing it wrong.
exactly.
do it better. drink more beer. like billy dee williams says, "works every time."
If your fans need to drink
If your fans need to drink beer to enjoy your games? You are reducing derby to the background noise of any sport in the background of a bar.
If we get to the point where we're the backround noise in a bar,
then we know we've made it.
Remember: ALL sports are inherently stupid. This one just happens to be ours.
We need better beer. PBR has
We need better beer. PBR has got to go. That stuff tastes like urine. Newcastle is the proper hooligan beer. After a good bout of yelling at refs for being morons, booing skaters for not skating, booing skaters for not fake fighting, booing skaters for not dancing in their lift and separates, complaining about how this sport doesn't make sense, and drinking cheep english beer, I can then roam the streets chanting "United" like Elija Wood in Green Street Hooligans. Maybe get in some fake street fights to make my hooligan/derby experience truly complete. Pretending to be a fake hooligan just isn't the same drinking american beer.
BLASPHEMY
But I applaud your intent.
Engage Homer mode
Mmmmmm.... Newcastle...
PBR, hooligans and the meaning of life
We need better beer. PBR has got to go. That stuff tastes like urine.
Yes Cheet, you're a blasphemer and an iconoclast. Excellent! Keep up the good work. PBR which really stands for Piss Barrell Rotgut, is the official beer for clueless hipsters and people who have no taste buds.
If you like Newcastle then you should try Fuller's ESB (Extra Special/Strong Bitter) which is something you'll never get at a derby bout unless you smuggle it in. I'm skinny so I can stuff about a dozen bottles in my pants. I sell them to connoisseurs of fine ale in the stands. The profit pays for my ticket and gas money plus the little old lady who sells popcorn always gives me a free bag 'cause she thinks I have a thing for her. Sorta like the cucumber scene in Spinal Tap only different.
Hooligans, not so sure about that one. They've been coming outta the woodwork around here since the Broons won the Stanley Cup.
PBR
I read recently that the new owners of Pabst have been undoing a lot of the underground marketing projects of the previous owners. I don't know what that means for beer sponsorships...
It's always a cat and mouse game
between the players/coaches and the rules in every sport. Most sports (football, basketball, baseball) have had many decades to tweak in response to player adjustments. It's just going to take some time to get most of the bases covered so there is only an occasional "game changing" tactic based on a loophole in the rules.
There probably needs to be a rules board that doesn't change the rules, but provides a definitive interpretation of the rules between revisions.
I cannot afford import
I cannot afford import hooliganism.
So glad we never have to deal with this mess...
I respect what WFTDA has done to promote our sport. Any skater would be foolish not to. But COME ON already with these rules!
I have been skating for 6 years, first with a WFTDA team, then with an OSDA team (rules I loved, good ole boy mentality...not so much) and now happily under M.A.D.E. (though our league still plays some away games each season by Renegade and WFTDA rules). I have played it all, not just once, and can tell you there are fatal flaws in the WFTDA rules. More so than in any other association.
One Whistle Starts - M.A.D.E. and OSDA have both played this way since the beginning. Why change a perfectly good rule from original derby?
Pivot Line - M.A.D.E. has never required Blockers to line up behind the Pivot and it has never been a problem. As a Pivot (who is allowed to break away should my Jammer be held up) I can tell you this makes it far more challenging to stay out front and ready to jam if I have to.
Majors and Minors - M.A.D.E. and OSDA both require players to serve for penalties immediately preventing all of these forced penalties which delay the game in many instances and allowing the skaters and fans to know exactly what they did wrong when they did it.
Stopping on the Track - M.A.D.E. prohibits skaters from stopping on the track unless it is as the result of an assist or fall. If you get ahead of the pack, you should drop to the outside and wait for the pack to catch up, which rarely happens anyway because our game is fast paced and more about endurance and blocking than strategy (though there is no shortage of strategy). If I wanted a strategy based game, I would join a chess club. Not to mention how dangerous it is to Blockers standing around on the track when Jammers could be coming in at high speeds.
Passing the Star - same exact thing as M.A.D.E. and OSDA allowing their Pivots to take off without making them actually pass a helmet cover. This was also an original way of play in derby. It forces more blocking and a faster paced game. Having not only a Jammer, but also a Pivot to cover makes it far more interesting for me as a Blocker. This also prevents wide spreads in points during games, as in this article. This is really the only and most important rule change WFTDA could make to fix most of these problems.
The problem WFTDA is having is it has become almost a game in itself to find loopholes in the rules. There was such an obsession at WFTDA's inception about scrapping anything and everything about old school derby (becoming female owned and operated, modernized, more athletic, no gimmicks) that they threw out a perfectly good and tested set of rules. Now they are having to back track making it more and more confusing to spectators and more of a challenge for skaters to come up with new ways to win (but not necessarily skate).
Each time an article like this comes out and a skater from an association outside of WFTDA chimes in we are accused of bashing WFTDA and told to, "hate the game, not the skaters," (whatever that means). I do love the game. That is why it is so sad to read things like this and hear of fans booing at events. This is our sport too, though it is looking less and less so every day.
Say what you will about the little guys and gals of M.A.D.E. but we knew a good thing when we read the original derby rules, and it seems WFTDA is finally starting to recognize that too. Too bad games like this are a reflection on all of us.
Curious.
I've read your website, and seen some of your members posting online recently. Can you tell me who M.A.D.E. leagues are? It's not anywhere on the website. Are you submitting your bouts and scores to DNN? Thanks.
Nevermind.
Derby Roster has it:
Florida Derby League (Orlando, FL)
Chesapeake Roller Derby (Westminster, MD)
South Jersey Derby Girls (Mullica Hill, NJ)
Red Bank Roller Vixens (Red Bank, NJ)
Man's Ruin Roller Derby (Chester, NY)
Tank City Derby Dolls (Olean, NY)
Penn Jersey Roller Derby (Philadelphia, PA)
979 Rec Rollers (Bryan, TX)
NOVA Roller Derby (Leesburg, VA)
Richmond Derby Demons (Richmond, VA)
Yes, but more
These are all leagues, but membership has more than doubled since these were posted. We just picked up additional leagues in Washington state, another league in New York, another in Virginia and more I cannot remember at the moment.
We also offer individual membership which a good amount of WFTDA skaters have done so they are able to also skate with a M.A.D.E. team in their area provided they have approval from their existing WFTDA league.
Leagues
Can you please let us know who the other 10 leagues are? We want to know if we're already tracking those scores, since I am pretty sure Poobah added M.A.D.E. to Derbymatic as a rule set a while ago. Also, from what date do we qualify these leagues as M.A.D.E. leagues? May/June 2011? Thanks!
Leagues
They officially opened membership back in Oct. 2010, but not all leagues joined on that exact date. And existing MADE leagues were asked to resubmit an official application, so many had been playing for years as the club before it became an official association.
DNN
We have had a hard time fighting the WFTDA machine for coverage on DNN (which is fine as we know they have their hands full obviously). We recently started Vicious Circle Magazine where we will be posting bout schedules and scores for M.A.D.E. leagues to ensure them coverage.
Can I get this on a t-shirt?
fighting the WFTDA machine for coverage on DNN
What is this machine of which you speak, and what does it use for fuel?
And if you're looking for tips on how to fight this machine, you may want to talk to MRDA, CWRDA, and the folks who did Battle of the Bank since all of their scores went out on the @DNNScores Twitter feed in the last month.
But that would give them one fewer thing to whine about!
DNN is not the WFTDA news outlet -- that's Five on Five. There are tons of non-WFTDA scores on DNN all the time. All you need to do is send the scores in and they'll post them.
Righhhhhhhht.
Sure they have posted some scores, but not consistently and we generally have to ask more than twice to get any response. It's obvious where their priorities are, which is fine. I'm not complaining. We had our own magazine up in a week.
Scores
If your score came in through our Submit page, or was texted to Hurt or Poobah, it got posted. There are no mysteries about this process, and our volunteer staff on *this* task doesn't miss a beat, so there is no chance that you sent a score and it didn't get posted to Derbymatic, if you used the scores submission process.
Hurt or Poobah can speak to whether or not anyone has ever had to "ask" more than once to have a score posted, but to the best of my knowledge, it is simply not true that anyone has ever had to badger us to post a score. In fact, our Derbymatic staff is usually doing the badgering, proactively seeking everyone's scores.
It is possible that a bout recap didn't get posted, but many don't, even for WFTDA leagues. Not because of a secret selection criteria or agenda, but because of a shortage of editing staff, as we recently described here.
And yes, a new online magazine is probably quite a bit easier to support than the scope of what DNN processes and produces for the entire global roller derby community with no salaried full-time staff. Kudos on your new magazine!
Scores/events that get submitted go into our database
Rogzilla has put in every score that Marzipain has sent him.
Scores and events that are submitted (or emailed to scores AT derbynewsnetwork DOT com) all get posted. So long as they aren't pickup games or involving pickup teams, junior derby, or rec derby. Thing to realize, I'm one person, creating bouts and scores for about 650 bouting leagues (that we know about). Of the stuff that doesn't get submitted, I get what I can manage to find. If anything, I probably tend to focus on "niche derby" because seeing how it does is interesting to me.
If we had rules sets as a reason to ignore bouts, we wouldn't have all those TXRD and Renegade Rollergirls bouts. TXRD has a volunteer/fan who submits their scores. The Renegade Rollergirls of AZ get their scores to one of a number of what I call "regional aggregator" sites (Derby Data).
If MADE or OSDA rules were a barrier to entry, we wouldn't have those rules sets available as drop-down options. I wouldn't have set up MADE as an organizing body on the database once the name stopped being kept a secret.
Moar.
Poobah speaks the truth, Rae, and having contributed scores for NJ leagues (which encompass WFTDA, OSDA, Renegade, and now MADE rulesets) for two years now, I can tell you that there is no anti-non-WFTDA-rules sentiment behind the scenes here.
And DNN's form aside, all last year I was in direct contact with Mos Deathly chasing down scores when your league was playing OSDA games. If SJDG wants to make sure that your MADE game scores are posted, she knows how to reach me.
And while I'm at it, I'm going to shake my finger at every league here with a Twitter account and say, POST THOSE FREAKING SCORES, GOSH DARN IT.
(apologies for the harsh language)
Moar moar moar
Not one for chiming in often, but I gotsta agree w/ Rog. I play for Psycho 78s and we're co-ed renegade rules derby, and also not affiliated with Renegade Rollergirls or another organization. If there was some sorta wftda-ghoul munching anyone's scores, 78s would never in a million years get posted. Odds are, nothing our team does will ever have an effect on the main group of teams most featured here, but our bouts and scores are still posted, including intra-league. It's no secret that there are derby peeps who are less than fans of us and what we do, but for those who wanna keep up with us, our scores can be found here which is pretty cool.
Very positive update!
Glad to hear all that Poobah. Several non-wftda leagues were turned off in the past, by non inclusion of our scores when submitted multiple, multiple times and never appearing (MADE has never submited any scores, but we look forward to in the future). As well as the non-mention of several large scale alternatve ruleset events after submitting them for any type of coverage. Hopefully, we can open the doors now and get our hardworking skaters the coverage they deserve, despite what ruleset they play by.
Could you get your stories straight?
(MADE has never submited any scores, but we look forward to in the future)
Wait, wait -- I thought Billy Rae Siren said MADE had been submitting scores that DNN hadn't been publishing. Now I'm confused.
Excuse my error...
I do not submit scores for M.A.D.E. so I was not referring to them.
I was referring back to when I skated for an OSDA league.
Though I can say we have contacted DNN about covering events before such as the Colossal Coastal Roller Expo at the Wildwood Convention Center each summer and know that they have been unresponsive. Whether or not they are unbiased, no one could deny that WFTDA is covered more than any other association by DNN.
I was in no way attacking DNN. Just stating an opinion shared by many. Please try coming to an event and prove me wrong. No need to attack.
You are correct.
...no one could deny that WFTDA is covered more than any other association by DNN.
I think there's no arguing this, and I think there's a valid reason for it: There are, by far, more WFTDA and WFTDA-style bouts happening than any other. WFTDA has more teams/leagues than any other similar association (MRDA, WORD, MADE, etc.), and it's not even close. So when DNN's looking at both their source material and target audience, why wouldn't they focus on WFTDA?
And that is fine...
I said twice in comments about that I was not complaining that WFTDA is covered more by DNN. You are right, they do have more leagues. I simply said we do not get a lot of coverage. I didn't think it would be such a controversial comment.
It is not fair to assume a publication fueled by volunteers would be able to be everywhere at once, but they can't deny we haven't asked for coverage. Which is why I said we have a hard time battling the WFTDA machine (as they are bigger and get more coverage). That is all. Again, I said I was not complaining. It would just be nice to be able to chime in on conversations on here without being verbally assaulted all the time.
The scores that get posted...
The scores that get posted here are nearly everything that gets submitted to us.
As to the "nearly," here's what usually doesn't:
Pickup teams/games. That includes most "one time only" teams. Hearts vs Flowers in February, Pilgrims vs Indians at Thanksgiving, Tastes Great vs Less Filling at RollerCon. Aside from having limited interest from our audience, it's almost always impossible to actually get the scores of these games. This past week I almost set up the first bout I knew was using MADE's rules, but the men's team that was skating it was playing against a pickup team.
So far this year we've gotten six Renegade Rollergirls bouts on our database. Found scores for four of the five that have happened thusfar. We've also got eight TXRD bouts and scores on the database, plus the remaining five of their upcoming bouts. These leagues don't skate anything remotely close to WFTDA rules. They have however either submitted scores to us or made their scores easy to find.
I'm one person trying to cover 940 leagues around the world. With another two people that help out fairly regularly and one or two more who pop scheduled bouts and scores in here and there as time permits them.
Anyways, perhaps you're looking in the wrong place? The Bouts page and the Scores page are where upcoming games and reported scores appear.
For example, I have 17 PJRD/PJSD/Hooligans scores going back to September 24th, 2006 (three of them from this year alone). About five more games we couldn't find the scores for. Due to the difficulty finding scores, I've tended to decline setting up your games in advance, just putting them in if I find out the scores afterward.
Twelve scores for South Jersey Derby games since March 2008, out of 21 games that have already happened, with four more as-yet unplayed games going out to October 15th of this year.
Clearly if the "WFTDA machine" is trying to suppress MADE and OSDA scores, they're doing a fairly awful job of it.
Submit your scores via email (scores@) and they go up on the web site.
When LOL is not enough
fighting the WFTDA machine for coverage on DNN
(No, that's not me in the GIF. It's Quadzilla.)
Irrelevant
All of those associations play under a nearly identical rule set to WFTDA.
Your Mom's Irrelevant
What in the world do rulesets have to do with DNN? Seriously, the only reason OSDA/MADE isn't being represented on DNN is because the people in the organization aren't stepping up and submitting content to DNN. And the only barrier to submitting things to DNN is the ability to find the button on the top row between "Power Rankings" and "Roller Derby Basics". The Masonic Handshake it is not.
(and, really, I think WORD would like some words with you for implying it's nearly identical to WFTDA. Boo Hiss on you for that one.)
Clarification
not true...probably the last year everyone had given up submitting to DNN, after the last "your too small for coverage" response.
I don't think anyone has a problem with WORD rules, at all.
I am just guessing but...it said right on them that they are WFTDA-based...and first thing that pops up on google...("Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA) rules, which coordinates and set the rules that govern sanctioned inter-league competition, the World Organization of Roller Derby" from a press release) and that might be what's causing the confusion. And I know the last time I read them, they were a lot closer to WFTDA style then they are now. Kudos!
I know for one, we are looking forward to sending a team to BOTB.
I'm curious though...why are you guys up in arms about being similar. I don't get it. I see now that they've been revised to be more different, that's great, and I think non-WFTDA based leagues will be more eager to try them out.
We just purchased our banked track and we're eager to try it all...up until now we've been training on a neighboring league's banked.
Rules
We've been posting Renegade scores since the beginning of Derbymatic. How do you compare their no rules style of play to WFTDA?
Identical?
All of those associations play under a nearly identical rule set to WFTDA.
Uh, really? When was the last time you read the WORD rules? It's probably a cross between WFTDA-style phrasing and MADE playing, from what I can tell. When WORD rules first came into existence, they asked permission from WFTDA to use rule phrasing when there was an identical rule, which is maybe where you're getting your confusion on how "identical" the rulesets are?
WORD, like every other banked track ruleset, has one minute jams, and lead jammer is determined by whichever jammer is in front. Not like WFTDA.
WORD has the jammer whistle start 3 seconds after the pack whistle. That's not very WFTDA-ish.
WORD doesn't allow for stopping on the track or counterclockwise skating. Similar to OSDA and MADE, right? WORD doesn't pull skaters off the track when a penalty is committed; penalized skaters sit out the next jam.
WORD defines the pivot much like WFTDA, though the pivot is not required to start on the front pack line. You know, like MADE and OSDA.
The aspect that I find interesting between MADE and WFTDA and WORD rulesets is that WFTDA and by example WORD uses the rulesets both as just rules and also as a blueprint, by defining many more things in the ruleset as opposed to MADE, which apparently has a ruleset, a ref handbook and a training handbook, right? So it's kind of a misnomer to say that MADE's rules are easier, when MADE has supplemental material that goes directly hand-in-hand with the rules.
To clarify that point more: can someone who isn't in direct contact with a MADE league or the main MADE organization pick up the rules and start playing the game as a MADE game without supplemental information? WFTDA includes track dimensions, blocking zones, etc. so that all those questions that do come up are already answered. WORD doesn't include track dimensions, but does include blocking zones, etc. for much the same reason...so that a league who reads the rules can start immediately playing with those rules without (hopefully) needing to ask a lot of questions of, "Is this allowed?" "What happens if (fill in the blank that isn't in the rules)?"
And one last thing: I haven't heard of anyone playing by WORD rules who couldn't get their scores submitted to DNN.
response to identical
Clearing this up...the ruleset as opposed to MADE, which apparently has a ruleset, a ref handbook and a training handbook
the ref handbook is 4 pages and includes the hand signals and whistle blasts nothing more. The training manual is what you call a Drill Book, nothing more, and has zero to do with the rules.
Our players learn the game without even reading the rules until they have to take the written test.
more clarifications about MADE
((WORD defines the pivot much like WFTDA, though the pivot is not required to start on the front pack line. You know, like MADE and OSDA.)) MADE and OSDA Pivots do start on the line.
MADE rules have all the blocking zones in it, and the track dimensions. We have lots of leagues join and play without any supplemental materials. You can play our game with just a simple explaination and no rulebook, as a matter of fact. Like we just did at a 10-team scrimmageathon with 5 WFTDA teams. Besides four pages of hand signals we don't have any supplemental materials (where are you getting this from?)
((And one last thing: I haven't heard of anyone playing by WORD rules who couldn't get their scores submitted to DNN.)) Good for you, since you use WFTDA wording I guess you have an easier time. But we have submitted stuff for years to no avail and several not so nice emails back.
O RLY
Welp, MADE must be downright magical if there's no need for a response to the rules lawyers that seem to exist in great numbers throughout the rest of the DIY derby world, who do a fantastic job of finding and exploiting the other ruleset loopholes out there. A lack of pages in the rules does that? Wow.
And sorry if everyone here doesn't know what MADE is about. I myself didn't even know MADE had a website until yesterday. Kinda hard to know the ins and outs of an organization when it's just putting itself out there in any kind of real push this year. *shrug*
O TARA
In the M.A.D.E ruleset there's no need for magic or lawyers. All magic, lawyers, loopholes and sparkly objects disappear when you lose all those pages and simplify.
And ponies. Who the hell needed ponies in a rule set anyways?
WORD Rules
http://www.renorollergirls.com/WORDRules.pdf
The first copy of the WORD rules you find when doing a Google search has, "Rules from the WFTDA STANDARDIZED FLAT TRACK ROLLER DERBY RULES," accross the top of it.
"When was the last time you read the WORD rules?"
...today.
Many of our skaters have a lot of respect for you Tara so I am sorry to see you getting so offended by a statement I thought was obvious based on several links like the one above.
I don't care how many DNN reporters step up and call me a liar. I skated through OSDA's rise and decline and now with M.A.D.E. and know that we have asked them to attend events and they have not and had great delays in response when asking them to post scores. Why even bother asking them to post scores when all we get is verbal beat downs every time we chime in on a story here? The defensive posture is really disgusting and discouraging, which is why we had to find another outlet.
Sorry to have offended you again. We love the sport as much as the next skater and just want to be recognized or allowed to express opinions without unnecessary angry retaliations.
Billy Rae....
You sound like a douche!
(i have a feeling this won't be posted long, but may be worth it for the short term)
I understand your surprise
... but we might let this one ride.
Which is a pity...
... because it would reinforce Billy Rae's paranoid delusions about DNN attacking MADE/OSDA folks.
I don't think anything will change their minds.
I've sent in scores (from a WFTDA Championship-playing team) and DNN has not posted them from time to time. Some sort of vast conspiracy? No, just a LOT of scores coming in at once, and occasionally they miss them. Oh well.
If you're going to continuously be a complaining snot, you're not going to win people over to your side.
time to stop feeding the trolls
If you're going to continuously be a complaining snot, you're not going to win people over to your side.
Also, if you're going to put down other organizations, the skaters, volunteers, members of this community and their respective hard work, you're not going to win any fans either. It is possible to make a strong case for your organization without dissing everyone else, right?
The whole damn problem...
I'm all for options in derby. Its not a one-size-fits-all sport. The more options, the better chance of someone finding a derby home that suits them well, and that makes for a happier derby community... but enough with the "my shits better than your shit" stuff. Of course I like my way of derby better- that's why I play it. I don't need to convert anyone over or to cut down OSDA, MADE, or WFTDA to validate Renegade rules simply because it's what I and my team mates favor. Funny, someone just went off on this on RDIT I think, lol.
To my MADE buddies, please take a little word of advice from someone who's been involved in a type of derby that many people don't like or want attention given to: you're gonna get more accomplished by being polite, allowing for open dialogue, and by focusing on the things in your organization that make you happy (as opposed to the things in other organizations that piss you off). The WFTDA isn't looking to hold you or anyone else back because, as far as I can tell, the WFTDA doesn't really give a rats ass what you and I do. They're concerned with their own thing. Sure, there are people involved in WFTDA leagues who are going to be total toolbags to you because you don't do what they do, but there are friggin idiots in every facet of this sport, regardless of rules or organization. Play the damn game, and have fun doing it, and if you've got a good thing going and promo well, fans are gonna show up and want to see it.
There are people in every rule set who think there type of the sport is "better than." Those people are called pricks, and infuse derby with the ego issues that hold it back from accomplishing even greater things. Take pride in your form, but not at the expense of disrespecting what ALL derby has to offer.
Seriously?
I just got shit for apologizing for offending Tara Armov for a statement that was clearly backed by multiple copies of rules on the internet...and it wasn't even offensive!
I had no idea WORD did not want to be compared to WFTDA nor was I bashing WFTDA. I simply said WORD rules were based on WFTDA rules.
And If the problems we have had with DNN are simply because of time management, than please excuse my complaint. I was simply expressing disdain after a member of our league received a less than friendly email from DNN after requesting coverage.
It is clear nothing I can say will be taken for anything other than WFTDA bashing, which was not the intention AT ALL.
hmmm
i haven't used the word prick in a while. I think I'm going to put that one back in the mix. Thanks spookYAM for reminding me that i can use "prick" when I'm trying to describe a special kind of douchebag.
Re hmmm
Hey, if my rantings do nothing else, at least I got "prick" back into your six-gun. I aim to please. -Spooky
The first thing I said in this whole thread was...
"I respect what WFTDA has done to promote our sport. Any skater would be foolish not to."
Stop putting words in my mouth.
Our leagues' B Team skated a WFTDA game last weekend on the same day and time our A Team was playing a Renegade game. We support other associations and respect all of those involved. This is unfair bashing for a comment that was taken completely out of context and not meant to offend WORD.
Lollerskating
Okay.... first off, I'm not against you dude (or MADE, or WFTDA, or Texas rules, or anything else). Also, I read what you said and I never put words in your mouth. You're not the only MADE person posting here, and there are also tons of other things I referenced in my post. Not a single time in any of it did I call you anything. There are pricks in your organization and every other. (On that note, I even defended you in the fact that people have been tools to you because, lets face it, they have). All I suggested is that we all get over ourselves and our pissing contests and just support one another. It was a generalized response because I'm not just referencing you or a comment you made. It was a generalized response because, as someone who loves derby, it pains me to not be able to do something as simple as check scores and look for peoples thoughts on strategy without having to be bombarded with this crap.
I'm aware that your A team skated Renegade last weekend - they faced my team, Psycho 78s. Big thanks to DNN for posting the scores up.
That was meant to be in
That was meant to be in response to MsDfiant, not you Spooky. And I know we played your league, and had a damn good time doing it.
The comments I made earlier about DNN and WORD were clearly taken out of context again. I stated in the original post that got this whole stupid argument started that we were not complaining about not being covered by DNN because it is clear their focus is on WFTDA. That is not to say that it is impossible to get your scores posted on here (though we have had problems, which someone from DNN clarified is more an issue of demand vs. man power). There is no denying that because there are more WFTDA leagues than Renegade or M.A.D.E. that they are what is primarily covered as far as articles and appearances by DNN.
As far as WORD, I did not bash them but simply stated that their rules are based on WFTDA's rules. I did not realize that would offend anyone. Sorry again.
All I know is those accusing me of being hostile have certainly not tried to speak to me in any kind of productive manor (with the exception of you Spooky).
no one needed
to put words in your mouth. You typed them yourself. A few posts back you may start out having respect, then follow that statement with a big BUT and a laundry list of flaws. In which, you also put down the OSDA. Then later complain about DNN.
When I made my statement, I was really talking about the larger "you" of MADE (but think it's okay for you too to take to heart as well Billie Rae). There are too many MADE posts that put down everyone around them (you're derby isn't not fast, hard-hitting, old school, insular, and so on). That is not what I consider productive. I think the org would've had a much different reaction if they came out and said "hey, this is what we do. We really like it!"
Anyway, i'm done here. Best of luck.
WFTDA skaters are allowed to bring attention to faults...
in their rules, but no one else?
Many posts before I chimed in were discussing problems arising with the WFTDA rules. Yes, I did point out ways to possibly prevent the scenario being presented here from happening, but it was not with the intention of swaying WFTDA teams to join M.A.D.E. or anything of the sort. I also did not assume this was a platform to promote my own association. I was simply comparing one association to another I am most familiar with.
We are not trying to steal leagues from any other association. WFTDA has admitted in the past that they are near capacity and restricts the distance of one league from another. We are simply filling a niche for those leagues unable to gain membership to WFTDA or not interested in doing so for whatever reason.
I do however, find it unfair that members of other associations are not allowed to participate in conversations about ways to better change rules for other associations. We are well aware of the work that WFTDA teams put in to become members and know they are going to withstand some snags along the way because they are overall happy or comfortable with their association. That does not mean there is not something to learn from others. What you are accusing me of doing is not unlike the way you are confronting me. Why is it impossible for different associations to approach one another with constructive criticisms, without being accused of bashing?
In my earliest post, I was merely pointing out possible ways to alleviate the problem suggested based on what is most familiar to me. We want nothing more than to see fans and skaters happy and continuing to promote roller derby. Whatever product you are presenting, if by the same name, is reflecting on the others, no matter what rule set they play by. Simple as that.
What.
WFTDA has admitted in the past that they are near capacity and restricts the distance of one league from another.
What.
Fifteen new apprentice leagues, added ten days ago. http://wftda.com/news/apprentice-leagues-july-2011
Denver (First Bank Center) to Rocky Mountain (Fillmore): 17.1 miles
Minnesota (Roy Wilkins Auditorium) to North Star (Minneapolis Convention Center): 10.4 miles
Windy City Rollers (UIC Pavillion) to Chicago Outfit (Windy City Fieldhouse): 5.3 miles
I am not making that up.
It was an actual statement in an interview. I will try to find it.
I mean every association has to top out somewhere. No matter what sport.
Per this article...
http://www.rollerderbyinsidetrack.com/features/2011/the-state-of-derby-p...
"There’s no cap on WFTDA membership — WFTDA will accept as many member leagues as are eligible according to our mission and bylaws."
They capped acceptance for 6
They capped acceptance for 6 months in 2009. I'm sure they will have to cap it again at some point. The Apprentice Program is great for allowing them time to make sure their existing leagues are taken care of before bringing more leagues in, but on the other hand some leagues are going to spend years there before making progress.
I first started skating with a league in Delaware in 2007. At that time, this league was already in the process of trying to get a letter of recommendation from an official WFTDA member league in the area, but were denied for whatever reason. The WFTDA website says they were accepted into the Apprentice Program in 2010. In the meantime, this league lost their President and a lot of members to this other WFTDA league. It's hard to resist the allure of national tournaments and sponsorships with a league less than an hour from your own, which is struggling.
I know for many leagues, the final pay out of becoming a WFTDA member is THE goal and that is great. But there are going to be others who, for this or whatever other reason, don't decide to go that route. With that being said, I just don't see why we can't all coexist. No hard feelings.
I want nothing more than to see WFTDA figure out the kinks talked about in the interview you just posted a link to. I am excited to see the beta testing for no minors going on right now. We play WFTDA teams all the time, by their rules and ours. The team with the advantage of playing by their rules always wins, no matter how many pages their rules are, because right now they are all like speaking a foreign language. It would be nice to see all of the rules become a bit more similar while maintaining their identities, for the fans and the players.
maybe not
100% done...
Obviously, everyone is encouraged and does discuss faults in the WFTDA rule set (and other associations when their tournament time comes). Let me assure you, WFTDA reps and volunteers do read the posts and discuss them internally.
But that's now what you were doing. You were elevating and differentiating your organization by talking about flaws in everyone else's. Then went on to post lies which people clearly pointed out.
Here's a challenge - from now on when you post don't use the letters: WFTDA, WORD or OSDA. Then you can talk about subjects and not organizations. That'd be a good first step.
Hypocrite much?
Nothing I posted was a lie.
You have responded with nothing but falsies and harsh comments about my organization, so I don't understand how your hypocrisy is justified at this point.
If (insert name of organization I am not supposed to call out here) is really so open to conversations and relationships with other associations, then why aren't our skaters allowed to skate at ECE? Why are some leagues scared to even play us because they are afraid it will hurt their chances of becoming a member of said association? Why do we get crap for pointing out faults in your rules, but you are allowed to say things about ours such as sarcastic remarks about our rules being made of "ponies," "magic," and "sparkly things"?
It is frustrating to read articles like this and know a completely viable solution, but have to sit there with your hand up waiting for someone to call on you to answer or have completely false allegations drawn about you when you do finally speak. 99.9% of the time we sit and bite our tongues and now I know why. Sorry if comparing our rule sets to one another was a bad move on my part. You're right, but don't try to lump OSDA into your group of people I am supposedly bullying. We have a good relationship with them.
You'd think we were trying to solve the Israeli–Palestinian conflict after reading this crap. Good luck with the rest of your season!
As far as I know, skaters
As far as I know, skaters from all sorts of leagues are invited to participate at ECDX... ???
It just seems like you keep going on about other organizations that have somehow wronged or slighted your organization. First, DNN wasn't giving you enough attention. Then WFTDA is a big fat bully that has nothing better to do with its time than pick on you.
Derby is by and large a DIY effort, right? So instead of bitching and moaning about something you don't like, do it yourself. That doesn't mean telling others how THEY should run their bizness to accommodate YOU. Don't like something? Make a derby news page of your own dedicated to all things MADE (or whatever it is you feel isn't getting enough coverage). Think you're being unfairly treated? Host a large-scale derby tournament of your own (and be sure to invite every league known to (wo)man so no one gets their feelings hurt). Bottom line - If this all means so much to you, why are you still TALKING about it? Stop talking and do something. Or just stop talking.
-Jasmine Facun
ECDX
ECDX is hosted by the Philly Roller Girls as an independent WFTDA showcase event. We are proud, longtime members of WFTDA and our efforts are intended to provide opportunities for skaters participating in leagues that follow the WFTDA ruleset. We choose to concentrate on what we know and what we do best.
This single event should not be considered a determinant factor as to whether or not any ruleset or organization is valid or superior to any others. It is not intended to be an all-inclusive event representing the entire world of roller derby. It is what it is -- 2+ days of women's flat track roller derby, according to the requirements that we, as hosts, present.
Clearly, any other organization may put forth the time and effort to produce something similar in order to showcase their own teams, leagues and practices.
FYI, ECDX'12 is already scheduled for June 22-23-24, 2012. See you then: on the track, in the stands, or at the pool!
Sincerely,
The Cycrone!
Philly Roller Girls
There are other roller derby conventions open to all...
RollerCon (WFTDA) and CCRE (M.A.D.E.) are open to any and all skaters from every association. We will be at both.
Let's all take a breath.
We've let this conversation roll unimpeded, but we've been going in circles for a while now and it's starting to get unnecessarily heated. I'm closing comments on this article. We've raised some conversation points that need airing out, so we'll find a constructive way to revisit these topics in a couple weeks, when the DNN core isn't totally tied up with RollerCon and/or getting married and is able to better participate and moderate.
There is no need for name
There is no need for name calling. You're being just as disrespectful as anything I have said.
I am not drawing conspiracy theories about a roller derby magazine.
I didn't call you out for being "disrespectful".
I called you out for being all complainy.
You ever see "The Shawshank Redemption"? Remember how Andy Dufresne got the books for the library? He didn't whine about how the state legislature was ignoring him, he wrote a letter a week until they paid attention.
Stop complaining on the internet and send your upcoming bouts and scores to DNN. Send every bout and every score. Dollars to donuts they won't "ignore" you for long.
Keep in mind that, just a few short months ago, folks talking about MADE on RDIT wouldn't even let people know which leagues skated MADE rules because of all the alleged backlash that they were going to get. Then all of a sudden, allied folks are complaining that there's not enough coverage. SOMEONE GET ME OFF THIS TREADMILL!
Double standards much.
This whole thread of comments is people complaining about one thing or another. People rarely respond to anything unless they have something negative to say.
Again, I said we don't care if we get coverage from DNN. I have said it like 5 times now in various comments. It's not to be snotty or anything else. We would just rather have an outlet where our members don't have to sift through hundreds of articles and recaps of WFTDA games to find us. That was all. There are more WFTDA teams, therefore DNN will always cover them more. And I wasn't even referring to M.A.D.E. exclusively when I made the comment, nor was I talking about strictly scores being posted. I was talking about all of the small associations and any/all coverage. Yes, they will eventually post our scores and possibly a preview to games, but if you want your association to be featured, you're gonna have to do it yourself.
I'll be honest, I didn't really agree with the way M.A.D.E. decided to test the waters or know why they didn't just release their roster of leagues. Just like in any association, not everyone will be unanimous in every decision, but that is the way it happened. However, let's be honest, the criticisms would have followed regardless.
Mountains out of molehills and vice versa.
It is not true that nothing happened for 2 minutes.
First, there were many penalties assessed in those 2 minutes. That's something.
Second, there was psychological warfare going on there. Maybe I am too close to it to get the fan perspective but I find that aspect very exciting.
Of all the potential rule changes that might make this sport better, slow jam starts are among the least important. What happened in Philly is very rare and its not like it happened twice in a row or as a repeated strategy. Besides, if they are so uninteresting why are there 71 comments about them on this thread?
Since 2008 the chants of "Let's skate forward" have pretty much died down. I think that playing while stopped, skating backwards, from a knee, etc. all adds depth and dimension to a sport that without those things would just be a race with hitting.
We should be talking about changes in jam length, jammer penalty assessment and lead jammer status that would make for closer scores between top level teams if we aim to improve the fan experience.
Lead Jammer Status
In the original rules and in M.A.D.E. rules, the Lead Jammer is which ever Jammer is in the lead and may change several times throughout a jam.
The Chants
The chants have died down because it's become less prevalent than it was for a while. Slow starts happen, but now when they do, one team just starts kneeling and forcing the jam start (thank god). Slow derby has gone to what it should be, an occasional tactic that good teams know how to counteract.
Skating fast with hitting is much.. MUCH more appealing to the casual fan than a defensive chess match. A healthy balance between the two is what's best for everybody. As long one team has options in the rules to FORCE the pack to move it's all good.
this is the biscuit
jammer penalty assessment, lead jammer status and changes in jam length. there it is. i would also appreciate WFTDA creating a comprehensive survey for the fans b/c as skaters and coaches have become more skilled, so have the fans become more knowledgeable and enthusiastic. nobody has bothered to ask me as a fan what i most like/dislike about wftda. so i post here...
WFTDA Survey
Every year the WFTDA does a mass public survey that gathers thousands of respondents (Detroit participates and we handed the surveys out in programs, they can also be done online), I believe it's published on DNN when it comes up, though I'm not much of an expert in WFTDA marketing.
Hambone?
~Sarah
p.s. Andrew! I love seeing you post on here and can you please change you name to Captain Awkward?
survey
my ears are burning ...?
Yes there is an annual WFTDA demographic survey in which I play a significant recurring role to organize.
Its focus to date has been strictly that: demographic. The 2011 general results are here http://wftda.com/sponsors/2011-demographic-information.
(Interesting survey fact: Did you know that NINETY PERCENT of today's derby skaters chose Peter Tork as their favorite Monkee?)
Naah, just kidding, we didn't ask that. BUT, member leagues do enjoy a member benefit of having this data broken down to their specific market.
But the focus of that survey has, to date, been purely to profile the modern derby fan from a demographic standpoint; i.e. Who are You, so that leagues can present this info to the outside world for whatever commercial purpose they desire.
If you've taken the survey you would know there are a couple of 'What Do You Think' questions in there to gauge opinions about the game itself (such as, opinions about men's derby, or opinions about fake names vs. real names), but nothing specific to on-track gameplay rules. At least not to date.
KB
i will when you go back to killbox sweetheart
The Jam that Wasn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbSCsITycPw&feature=feedlik
I just watch that shit again and again and laugh and laugh.
Like that proverbial motherfucker from the book of Proverbs who couldn't stop laughing.
Very funny
I have to admit it was very funny, and I hoped they would have done it for two or three more jams.
Poker face
Someone needs to make a Poker Face remix video using the jam footage.
Refs missed on that one
If you watch the video, at :32 seconds in every player has one foot across the pivot line. Shouldn't the officals blown two whistles for the jammers to start at that point?
Agreed
They all did cross the pivot line for sure. Poor call on the ref's part.
that's not the rule
The rule is
4.4.2 - Once the rearmost pack skater has crossed the Pivot line, the referee whistles the Jammers to begin their sprint through the pack with two short whistle blasts.
"Straddling" or "being on" the line is not considered "crossing" the pivot line. Historically it has been a point of some confusion, indeed, but these officials did get that right ... and rewarded us all with a two minute morality play.
Roller Derby Sucks.
There, I said it!
LOL
I thought this was witty at first but as the arguments drag on I'm beginning to see the nugget of truth in it :(
When it comes down to it...
Can't everyone just find the type of derby they like most, enjoy that, and cheer on other people who like different types?
Also: no-touch icing in hockey saves lives. So, I'm a fan. :)
Hope this finds everyone well and having a wonderful Saturday-
My 2 dollars adjusted for inflation...
DNN, via Poobah on SEVERAL different forums I've been on for the past four years has repeatedly asked for teams to submit not only upcoming bout dates, but also after the fact scores.
He's never once said "If you are a WFTDA team".
If you are referring to WFTDA covering an event "LIVE" and were told "you are too small a group" (Which I am just speculating at), it could be that DNN is covering less and less events by sending the 'crew' out (Val, JFM, Hurt, Dumptruck, Mercy etc..) and more having the Event itself cover and if Wifi/tech support works, broadcasting it through DNN, but not BY DNN.
I could be wrong on that last paragraph, that just seems to be my perception as of the last six months and not anything I've been told by ANYONE directly affiliated with DNN who I have MAD respect for.
SO.... Perhaps what you need to do is have access to film/boutcast the event yourself and submit to DNN the appropriate links/settings for them to publicize it for you?
Thank you
That was a helpful suggestion.