Streaming solutions
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From the "it's always some damned thing" department, today's very exciting WFTDA Quarterfinal and Semifinal action was marred for many of you by a very untimely spate of poor service from Justin.tv, the low-cost streaming provider we frequently rely on as our streaming service. We've found Justin.tv to frequently be a very serviceable solution, but from time to time, they can't handle the load of everything that's going on through them, and the result is choppiness or freezes that make things almost unwatchable.
Similar problems occurred on the second day of WFTDA's North Central Region Playoffs this year. To address the problem, we switched to USTREAM.tv for the day, which performed just fine. For various reasons, we prefer Justin.tv's offering, so on the third day of that event, when Justin.tv had returned to solid performance, we switched back. USTREAM is a similar service, with similar drawbacks -- they can get overloaded at completely unpredictable times. Every time is a crapshoot, although one with really good odds.
Today, the number came up. It could come up tomorrow, too. We could try USTREAM tomorrow to see if it works better. We could try Justin.tv again in case the problem has cleared up; we could try both, go with whichever works best, switch back and forth if they struggle. We could pull our hair out, while you all do the same at home.
We're not going to do that. We're going to work it out.
Many of you indicated that you'd happily accept a pay per view option if it guaranteed the quality. We are not inclined to hide our video stream behind a paywall, because DNN's mission is to make the sport accessible to the widest possible audience. We're also wary of the split model, where you can pay for a high quality stream if you don't find the free stream to be adequate, for a number of reasons I'll elaborate on in a followup post after the weekend. The short form is, when Justin.tv or USTREAM.tv don't work well enough, the split-mode model fails to satisfy DNN's wide-audience mission.
The bottom line: for the WFTDA 3rd Place and Championship bouts, we're going to move to a streaming service that provides guaranteed quality. It's going to cost a chunk of money. We're not going to require anyone to pay for it, because we are serious about our mission to make derby as accessible as possible. We are, however, going to count on those of you who are willing to pay for quality to help us foot the bill.
To sweeten the deal, we're making the 2010 contribution premiums available again, for a limited time. We'd like to thank Flat Track Revolution once again for creating such an amazing design, and for hand-screening it onto high-quality clothes and accessories as gifts for people whose contributions make DNN possible.
Comments
Sorry
Hurt,
Toward the end of the Oly/Philly bout Tara Armov asked for viewer feedback about the video problems. At the time I said what I thought (and I bet a lot of other people thought too). Just after I typed & sent it I regretted it. I, along with everyone else, know that the whole DNN crew is doing the very best they can under what I can only assume is extremely trying circumstances. Doing it I might add for no pay. Bringing not only the Championships but all the other derby bouts to us year round can't be easy or at times fun. However you do well and we all appreciate it.
So to you, JFM, Gnosis, Val, Dumpy, Tara, Smarty, Busta, Ivana, Slack, Poobah (who was running herd in the Justin.tv chatroom) and everyone too numerous to name who is in Chicago helping out I just wanted to say thank you and I'm sorry. We out in Derbyland sometimes take for granted all the hard work you do & just expect it all to go smoothly when we tune in for a boutcast. We forget all the hard work that really goes into these events. I am certain that if any of us were put in your shoes we would be running around like mad people not having a clue how to handle situations like this when they turn up. As soon as I get a few things taken care over the next couple of weeks I will be happily donating again to make things a little easier, if only on the funding front.
*I can't forget to thank Hinckley Design & Productions for filming the heck out of the tournament. Plus all the sponsors for helping out, the WFTDA for having such an event & lastly the Windy City Rollers for all the hard work we will never hear about that comes with hosting this event in Chicago. Good job all!
SopCast?
Have you tried sopcast? It's p2p and you can host the channel yourselves rather than pay justin.tv or ustream etc...
Not for Finals
We'll probably explore a peer to peer video streaming solution for a lower-profile event at some point, but we're most definitely not going to do it now. P2P is pretty much the definition of "not in our control, no guarantee available," and what we are dead-set on achieving for Sunday's action is a 100% certain solution.
I haven't investigated in detail, but I suspect another drawback of P2P solutions will be the requirement to download and install player software, which may or may not be available across multiple platforms, or support mobile devices, or any of a dozen other issues, predictable and not.
One great advantage of services like Justin.tv and USTREAM.tv, and something we consider to be table stakes for the CDN options we're evaluating at this moment, is that they use Flash Player -- software that has an installed base of something truly ridiculous like 96% of web connected computers. It's already there, so for most people, the video just works.
If you watched the SC Region Playoffs this year, you may have experienced the drawbacks of relying on any platform other than Flash Player. The broadcast from that event used Microsoft's Silverlight, which is the key competitor to Flash Player.
Silverlight has made great inroads in a very uphill battle; it's very difficult to persuade casual computer users to install unfamiliar software just to display content of uncertain value. Silverlight's installed base is approaching 60%, which sounds quite good.
The practical experience for the other 40%, though, can be very uncomfortable: you run into a site that relies on Silverlight, and discover that it's not installed on the computer you're using, and maybe that computer is owned by your employer, and maybe you don't have adequate permissions to install programs. Or maybe you're running an older version of your computer's operating system that's not supported. Or a browser that Silverlight can't cope with. Or, god forbid, Linux (heathen!).
I'm rambling when I should be sleeping, as tomorrow's gonna be a longer day than planned. Thank you, Windy City Rollers, for scheduling this event on the weekend Daylight Savings Time expires in the US. The bottom line: we're being very, very thoughtful about the technology we employ, always with our core mission in mind: get modern roller derby in front of as many people as possible.
Why worry about supporting
Why worry about supporting Flash or Silverlight, when HTML5 is becoming the standard. I actually agree with Steve Jobs on dropping Flash support on iPhone/Pad even though I don't own either devices. There are plenty of other free P2P solutions out there. I haven't looked into all of them. But, if you have about 5 or 6 dedicated peers around the country with high bandwidth connections (greater than standard 2M), then bandwidth shouldn't be an issue, and it will only improve as more peers connect to watch. BBC iPlayer uses P2P technology to deliver its content.
Heathens
Donation already sent, but thanks for thinking of us heathens.
I don't mind!
As someone who is in a whole other country and never gets to see WFTDA games, I am so grateful for what DNN does. I don't care that the streaming isn't always perfect...I don't care that with the time difference I have to get up at 4am to watch the final (come on DNN, do something about THAT!)...I am just so glad I can sit in my house in Australia and watch the best derby in the world :)
While it can seem like the most annoying thing ever when the stream doesn't work properly, what DNN offer is more than I could expect....and as they say: It ain't at all like being there!! So let's all chillax for a minute and give thanks to the DNNsters for the hard work they do.
Thanks DNN for continuing to give us the opportunity to watch such high class derby (even if it's in stops and starts!). Australian derby would not be where it's at if we could not see how our big sisters in the US skate!
Kitty Decapitate
Victorian Roller Derby League
DNN is amazing
I'm with Kitty and Vaderella - if it wasn't for DNN I don't think Australian Roller Derby would be anywhere near as amazing as it is today.
Being at TGSS and watching VRDL battle Sun State in that game was one of the most amazing moments of my life - and so inspiring. I can only imagine how electric the atmosphere was in Chicago today. Just hearing the voices of Val and Dumpy was enough to suggest it was beyond euphoric. Thank you so much Hurt, and the rest of the Derby News Network crew, for everything you did to make sure we could watch the best bout of the year. Getting up at 5am, having a nap in the evening in order to wake up at midnight and watch through til 11am the next morning... being on this side of the world sucks timing wise... but hey, at least we got to watch it.
One day, that Hydra will be coming to Australia, let me tell you!
I love you, DNN. (and I love YOU, Suzy Hotrod. and DeRanged. and Whippity Pow. and everyone in the entire universe.)
Penergy!
Brisbane, Australia.
Text and video at same time for me ...
I usually put the text coverage and the video up at the same time. That way if there's video problems (and those do happen, the internet being the internet after all) ... there's still the amazing text coverage to keep the score and important action updated.
I think that this amount of coverage is even available at all is a herculean win for the sport.
some thoughts
I also want to express my appreciation for everything that everyone has done. I also have some experience with video streaming and I know how difficult that can be. I would welcome a move away from justin.tv and ustream because I think it can be inherently problematic to base one's efforts on services which may or may not last, and which can be spotty. That said, I also hope that the people doing the work are sure that this is the problem. The same video stuttering problem that plagued the Oly v Philly bout occurred earlier and yet it seemed something was done which caused the video to drop but when it came back it was fine. It was also noted by myself and others that justin.tv was having no problems sending ads or with other channels. The only thing that strikes me as pointing to justin.tv is that it could be there system of keeping all viewers in sync (watching at the same moment) which was breaking down under load. Last year there were far more viewers of the stream, but at that time there was no such system. Opening the stream in 2 rooms (which I did for testing) they would be several to many seconds apart. Now they are within 1 or 2 seconds which suggests an active attempt to keep everyone synchronized and that may be the culprit. Still the number of viewers for the Oly v Philly bout was a bit lower than some earlier bouts (presumably because the video problems caused people to give up) so it does not seem like it's just due to number of viewers as has been repeatedly suggested.
Live streaming video is a tricky problem and there is currently no perfect solution. I would second a call for at least investigating other solutions. The most promising solution at the moment I think is swarmplayer (http://swarmplayer.p2p-next.org/) which is being backed by wikipedia among others. The downsides are that it is currently only available as a firefox plugin and documentation is somewhat sparse. Another solution is GoalBit (http://goalbit.sourceforge.net/) but it has the same problems as SopCast: they require a software download and neither has a mac version. These options are not mutually exclusive, you can pay for a streaming setup and send a stream to a p2p system. The more people use the p2p system the less you should have to pay. While people are sure to continue there generosity with regard to funding it's always wise to keep costs as low as possible.
I suppose we'll see what things look like tomorrow, as an experiment, and people can give more feedback as to what they would like to see happen.
Good points! Here's more about our process.
I also want to express my appreciation for everything that everyone has done. I also have some experience with video streaming and I know how difficult that can be. I would welcome a move away from justin.tv and ustream because I think it can be inherently problematic to base one's efforts on services which may or may not last, and which can be spotty.
You hit it right on the nose. It's something that we've been talking about a lot internally. We've been very fortunate to have these essentially free services -- without USTREAM and Justin.tv, I highly doubt we would ever have even considered attempting to provide live video coverage of the sport. We'd still just be a glorified blog, if even that.
Over time, though, we've seen both services slowly slide down the startup spiral that's familiar to anyone who's spent a lot of time in tech work: startup creates stellar technology, secures funding, provides great service for a couple years, until the money starts to run out... then gradually, the need to become self-sustaining changes the service for the worse.
In these examples, we've seen gradually more and more intrusive advertising, more and more reliability problems, and fewer support resources. We used to have direct phone numbers for three people
at Justin.tv... people we could call to arrange for an event to be front-page featured, to get help optimizing our streaming settings, to report issues on their network. We still have all the numbers, but they ring to a recording that indicates that person is no longer employed by Justin.tv. Efforts to develop new contacts haven't borne fruit, which smells to us like a startup that's downsizing to stay alive.
That said, I also hope that the people doing the work are sure that this is the problem. The same video stuttering problem that plagued the Oly v Philly bout occurred earlier and yet it seemed something was done which caused the video to drop but when it came back it was fine. It was also noted by myself and others that justin.tv was having no problems sending ads or with other channels.
Totally valid point. One of the biggest irritations in the tech industry is the unwillingness of so many tech companies to accept responsibility for their own issues, when it's so much easier to just blame an upstream or downstream vendor for problems than it is to actually do the work of troubleshooting.
Over the past couple years, we've learned our way through several dozen different ways the problem can be us, rather than the streaming company. The number one culprit is inadequate bandwidth at the event venue, which leads to poor quality and (especially with USTREAM) constantly dropped stream connections. Inadequate streaming hardware is also an issue -- it takes a pretty serious CPU to compress video on the fly at any quality.
Even with a spiffy new Core i7 machine, we still have to pay attention to issues like overheating. All of that's before we even begin looking at problems that can arise on the A/V side of the production. In fact, yesterday's problems first manifested as overly compressed sound, and we spent a bunch of time trying to identify the problem in our sound gear before finally determining that it was just one symptom of problems on the stream.
Bottom line: we extensively investigated all possible local causes of those symptoms. The diagnostic step that leaves us most confident that the issue wasn't local is this: the archives on Justin.tv don't show the same issues. If the issue were local, the archive would show it, too, but it's clear from a few minutes' perusal that we were delivering a quality signal from our streamer, and they were failing to then broadcast it out in real time.
Still the number of viewers for the Oly v Philly bout was a bit lower than some earlier bouts (presumably because the video problems caused people to give up) so it does not seem like it's just due to number of viewers as has been repeatedly suggested.
In the past, we've had audiences of up to 5000+ simultaneous viewers (during that wild October Sunday in 2009 when Justin.tv pulled the plug on all the NFL rebroadcasters, and suddenly several thousand football fans got their first taste of derby) with no problems. Our running theory right now is that Justin.tv is doing some sort of selective availability to keep capacity under control.
Whatever it is, it's not something they are responding to correct. We can't be confident that USTREAM.tv wouldn't have the same issues if we use them today.
Live streaming video is a tricky problem and there is currently no perfect solution. I would second a call for at least investigating other solutions.
Word. We're pretty much always investigating other solutions, but our time is finite, so we always want to hear your ideas if you've got a good one we might not have considered!
These options are not mutually exclusive, you can pay for a streaming setup and send a stream to a p2p system. The more people use the p2p system the less you should have to pay. While people are sure to continue there generosity with regard to funding it's always wise to keep costs as low as possible.
This is a really good point. Serving up more than one stream requires additional hardware that we don't currently have, so, that's a hurdle to overcome, but it's sure looking like it's a good next investment to make.
I suppose we'll see what things look like tomorrow, as an experiment, and people can give more feedback as to what they would like to see happen.
We are definitely interested in feedback from everyone in our audience! In the "off season" we're going into heavy planning and feature development mode... lots of lessons learned to apply, once we're able to stop and take a breath!
you rock my world DNN
thank you for the glorious coverage this weekend. Im with Kitty - being from Aus and not getting the oppportunity to see this level of derby played in person. I freaking <3 DNN for providing this service.
We have had a super mega watch party weekend here.My liver is asking for a divorce, my eyes are going to fall out of me head and theres one more day to go and another 5 am start for us tomorrow whoo hoo!
(and I get the opportunity to see my goose of a husband trackside with a koala on his head, if that isn't gold i don't know what is)
$100 donation coming your way DNN - thank you from your southern land sistas and brothers for keeping us in the loop
big big love
Vaderella
Adelaide Roller Derby
South ozstrayla
Mine too
I remember in the earliest days of Australian roller derby, watching tiny, underexposed, grainy, abbreviated youtube clips of people's "greatest hits" (you know, the ones where someone goes flying into the crowd and then someone else stands up in front of the camera) and trying to extrapolate "how to play derby" from them. It sucked. It was impossible. We got all kinds of crazy ideas. I'm pretty sure that I would still be totally unable to play derby if we'd kept relying on those, rather than the full games and commentary that DNN provide. I am so grateful. Really.
The stars kind of aligned for me so that I could be at the championships this weekend so I had no idea about any of this, or anything vested in the video being awesome ... but I have memory and principles and gratefulness, so I'm donating.
Beck Wise
Formerly Sydney Roller Derby in Oz (2007-9 - one of the first five leagues in the Southern Hemisphere!) -
Then Canberra Roller Derby in Oz -
And now a pretty-constantly-awed-at-my-derby-fortune expat in Austin, Tx
Awesome Coverage.
First let me say that I'm happy to be able to watch the tournaments at all and a donation for all your hard work should be coming your way shortly.
Now for a few streaming tid-bits.
1) Why reinvent the wheel? Your issues are felt by many more commercial streamers their solution is to use multiple providers.
Example: http://live.twit.tv/
2) Some of the issues appeared to be systemic to Justin.tv specifically with it's click and go hosting. I'd suggest looking into streaming with FME, you will not only have a more reliable stream but your quality should be better also.
Example: http://www.justin.tv/catreina/b/258813668 (Granted your source would be the camera and not VHScrCap)
re: Awesome Coverage.
First let me say that I'm happy to be able to watch the tournaments at all and a donation for all your hard work should be coming your way shortly.
Thank you! And thank everyone who is answering the call. It was nice to know last night that we could be confident in the DNN community's help, if we made clear the nature of the issue.
1) Why reinvent the wheel? Your issues are felt by many more commercial streamers their solution is to use multiple providers.
Example: http://live.twit.tv/
We've had "multiple simultaneous streams" on our wishlist for quite some time, for a variety of applications... and sending to multiple providers for redundancy is a great reason, indeed. Why haven't we done it yet? The necessary hardware is very, very expensive.
For about a thousand dollars, we have a computer that's suitable for a 640x480 stream at up to about 1mbps. Using separate computers for separate streams is impractical for a number of production reasons, so for multiple streams, you pretty much need a $9000 Tricaster.
We feel that the long-term success of derby media depends on keeping the costs sustainable from within. That's a big step to take. After the event, I'll be writing more about the economics of derby media, and the dangers of models that take the needs of the broadcaster out of harmony with the needs of the audience.
2) Some of the issues appeared to be systemic to Justin.tv specifically with it's click and go hosting. I'd suggest looking into streaming with FME, you will not only have a more reliable stream but your quality should be better also.
Example: http://www.justin.tv/catreina/b/258813668 (Granted your source would be the camera and not VHScrCap)
Crossed that bridge a loooong time ago. Justin.tv's web-based encoder, while dead simple to use, is totally unsuited to sports action, which requires a very aggressive and sophisticated codec like H.264. Justin.tv supports Flash Media Live Encoder, and as you recommend, we've been using it almost from the beginning of video on DNN.
re: Awesome Coverage.
Hurt,
I know you're already aware of this, but it might be worth mentioning to other interested folks - Our local league has had some measure of success streaming bouts at 640x360 (half-wide) at 1Mbs (including chroma-key) with a computer that cost about half that much ($500 rather than $1000) - a consumer-grade quad-core AMD (HP p6510y - not my personal choice, but rather a result of screaming "I need a fast computer yesterday" while throwing $500 at a hardware guy I know, with only a week to go before my first boutcast). Of course, using such a machine requires some extra tricks (an embedded clock in the chroma-key overlay, killing core services to the point that almost all the machine *can* do is boutcast, etc), but it *is* possible for the technically savvy (of course, as always, YMMV). I do see some potential for chaining (via a localnet) several of these lesser-quality machines to further increase the functionality (e.g. a machine handling multiple cameras and according switching feeding to a machine that handles clock overlays feeding to a machine that handles the actual encoding via FME), but that idea has yet to leave the lab (by which I mean my house ;-).
Hope you weren't too busy to watch those last few jams Sunday - absolutely incredible!
Thanks for the coverage...
...without it, we just wouldn't get to see any of the high-level derby you guys broadcast here in London.
What you guys do is directly impacting on derby all over the world; without being able to see the top teams in action, leagues that can't easily see them won't develop nearly as fast. You guys do an awesome job, and while it's not without its hiccoughs, it's really appreciated.
Looking forward to seeing the coverage later on, and fully intend to throw some cash your way in gratitude for the hard work and awesome service.
Another thing to consider
I understand why Justin.tv is going to be a roadblock for you guys in the future, at least for big-time events. However, that they have an iPhone/Android streaming app (as does uStream) is quite nice, seeing as that I can watch derby anywhere I have a 3G signal. This saved me from certain death by boredom at work, as I got to watch all the games on Saturday from the comfort of my own phone.
I'm totally on board with the fact that streaming TV or live events over the Internet is the future. I'll be sending some more money your guys' way once I can afford to do so to help you out with everything. But whatever you decide to go with, remember that with the explosion of next-gen phone networks, Internet-streaming TV, and smarter smartphones, not everyone is going to want to—or will be able to—sit in front of a computer to watch something as it happens.
On the nose.
Just like the discussion about CDN services that require Silverlight, or other third party software that's unlikely to be already installed, many of the available paid options just don't work well on unconventional platforms. I love watching derby bouts on my Evo when I'm in the car or away from home.
I've said it once before but it bears repeating, now: Our mission is to bring derby coverage to as many people as possible.
Evo watching
I love watching derby bouts on my Evo when I'm in the car or away from home.
I've said it once before but it bears repeating, now: Our mission is to bring derby coverage to as many people as possible.
I want to watch on my Evo!
please develop a DNN App that allows this.
(I tried but couldn't get Justin TV to stream on it)
JustinTV on EVO
I want to watch on my Evo!
please develop a DNN App that allows this.
(I tried but couldn't get Justin TV to stream on it)
I had no problems streaming from JustinTV on my Evo.
But would not be against a DNN app! :)
A little extra
Threw some extra dollars your way to help with the coverage. Its a small price to pay for all the great derby!
Can you quantify the support you need?
One thing that would help in asking for support is giving people a ballpark for the costs, for example 100 people at $20 per person. Talking to a couple people they were saying that they could only give a few dollars and that would not matter.
Many hands make light work
One great thing about the community-funded model we've borrowed from public broadcasting: it's like a bucket brigade. If you had to move a swimming pool full of water all by yourself, it's be a gargantuan task, but a whole lot of people with a whole lot of buckets can make quick work of it. Let's see how many more metaphors I can mix.
What I'm saying is, small contributions do matter, and are very much welcome and wanted. When we see a $50 or $100 or $250 or bigger contribution, well, of course, we're delighted, but I think sometimes it's the $10 and $5 and $3 contributions that touch us the most... because it's clear that someone just didn't have a lot to give, but felt compelled to do *something*, and that shows us how meaningful it is to our audience that we keep putting our shoulder this load of work.
To give you a more concrete answer: the package we signed up for today required a $2250 minimum investment. If we consume the resources that provides us, and with the audience we have it's looking very much like it might, then we will incur overage charges that could be quite substantial. There are less costly solutions available, but given our need for something we could provision without human interaction (i.e. without waiting until Monday for a salesperson to be available), our options were very constrained. We bypassed the budget options and picked the one we were *certain* would work.
Contributions so far have taken a pretty big chunk out of that initial amount already, especially from a bunch of crazy Australians... damn, girls, we love you too! Thank you. I hope this helps provide a little perspective on the economics.
I'd ask you to reconsider
I'm not sure why you would have an aversion to two separate feeds, a lower quality free feed streamed through ustream or justin.tv and a high quality feed for a fee. Blaze Streaming Media did this for the Western Division Playoffs, as he has done for some of the bigger Rose City Roller events and it works perfectly. Lots of people and businesses are willing to pay to get the ad free higher quality feed. They also stored each of the bouts for 90 days where the people who paid for HQ feeds could go and rewatch them or see ones they may have missed. This is a very appealing choice for people in other time zones who are not able to get up at 4am to watch a day of derby. This makes the content available to people in whatever form they wish to get it and is a win-win situation for everyone. Those who don't want to pay don't have to, and those who wish to have the quality feed can get it. I would invite you to get in touch with the guy who runs blaze and find out how he does his events, they are always top notch. This isn't going to help you today, but could be the solution you are working for in the future. His HQ feed was awesome and his ustream never hiccuped.
http://www.blazestreaming.com/
Also consider that people were abondoning yesterday's feed in high numbers. This is a reduction in numbers that you can use to pick up sponsors. That is bad for business. Also, this is the championship event of the fastest growing sport in the US, it deserves to be able to be viewed in a way that reflects just how awesome of an event and sport this is.
I appreciate all the hard work that people put in behind the scenes to bring us the feed and hate to see all their hard work end up with frustration, both by them and the viewers.
Derby Video
The biz model with Western's was unique and worked out for many. Live Derby video production is still young and it is important to try new funding models. I was nervous to try something new and appreciate Sacred City for stepping out. Between the high quality feed and the dvd sales we were able to cover our full video production costs and contribute a significant amount back to the host league via a rev share.
I don't think a perfect biz model has materialized yet. The events yesterday had more to do with a failure of Justin.tv then a failure of a business model. Many prefer the "chip in" model of DNN, while others would prefer to pay for a service with a clear price and value. Both biz models have examples of success in the marketplace.
Ideally, the mechanics of how we deliver live derby should not be the story. Instead it should be the action on the track.
Joe Christensen
Blaze Streaming Media
Well said.
Joe hit the nail on the head! Lots of possible ways forward, and it's great to pursue multiple routes to see what sticks... but why are we talking about that now? Did you see that Rocky/Oly bout? Amazing.
It's about the sport.
We made it.
Everyone who said yesterday that you'd pay for a reliable stream: thank you for following through. That cost is covered!
Still looking for a way to say thanks, financially, for this amazing tournament? Go order bout DVDs now. You know you're going to want to see that amazing final again and again, and the proceeds go to help host league Windy City cover the costs of putting on this stellar event!
it doesn't get better than that!
THANK YOU FOR LETTING US BE PART OF THAT AWESOME LAST 2 MINUTES!!!
the feed held out for the last 10 minutes so we are so grateful. I had our zebras on the mobile phone track side screaming in that last jam. Tears flowed it was just the best :)
Thank you DNN crew for all that you do.
Donation well spent...hand me another beer
Party hard then rest up
Big Big love
Vader and the Foxhole cinema delirious derby dawn crew from Oz
xxx