#4 Denver Takes On #13 Boston & #7 Philly
BOSTON, MA -- This Saturday, get ready for blurs of white and blue as the Boston Massacre welcomes the Denver Roller Dolls’ Mile High Club to the Shriner’s Auditorium. Denver is on the hunt for a big win after their hometown rivals Rocky Mountain scored big against Texas and moved over them in the Derby News Network Power Rankings this month. But the Boston Massacre are looking to start a winning streak after their 111-58 point victory in Montreal.
This bout will be covered live via textcast by Xena Paradox and Kendra Blood. Join DNN at 5pm Eastern time (3pm Mountain) for the action!
This June 19th bout welcomes Shellby Shattered back to the track; Shattered was relegated to yelling from the sidelines after an ankle injury in early March. Claire D. Way is sure to lead the Massacre offense this Saturday—she brought another MVP award home from Canada to add to her trophy room. Joining Claire to punch through the Denver defense are Killary Clinton, Sugar Hits and Krush Puppy.
Boston has built a 3-2 record in 2010, with losses to Oly and Philly but wins over Montreal, Carolina and Providence. The formidable Massacre defense that was able to hold some Oly jammers at bay returns this Saturday with the nimble Lil’ Paine and formidable Harlot Fevah. Shrewd blocker Anna Wrecks’ya will be sure to keep her teammates in line and expect captain Lois Carmen Dominator to control the Massacre in the pack.
But the Denver Mile High Club didn’t get their number four ranking for nothing. They upset Texas last month, solidly defeated Rat City last weekend, and have gone 4-0 this year, with their most recent loss coming against undefeated national champions Oly at last year's WFTDA Nationals. All-star jammers Angela Death—a former figure skater and hockey player and Heather Juska will undoubtedly rack up points come Saturday. Not to be outdone, captains Teresa Rusk and Ariel Quigley will lead the Denver defense to swarm the any lagging Massacre players like a school of piranhas.
According to DNN power rankings, Denver is ranked #4 while the Boston Massacre is sitting pretty at #13. According to WFTDA quarterly rankings, Boston is #3 in the East while the Denver Mile High Club is #2 in the West. With the WFTDA ranking quarter coming to a close at the end of the month, a win by Denver would maintain their national dominance while an upset by Boston would likely mean a significant adjustment in rankings across the board.
After the Boston bout, Denver gets little rest -- Philly, officially #2 in the East via WFTDA and #7 nationally via DNN, comes up to town to take them on in a closed bout on Sunday. Philly is now 3-3 on the season, having bounced back after opening their 2010 season with three losses in a row to high-powered Western teams Oly, Rose City and Rat City. Back on the East Coast, though, Philly has taken down Dutchland, Detroit and Boston, suggesting that Denver might have a tougher time in the closed bout.
Tracy Akers 99 // Ariel Quigley 1982 // Heather Juska 303 // Julie Adams 19 // November James 357 // Gabby Begeman 90 // Jessica Rivas 350 // Caitlin Preston 1055 // Deirdre Sage 5 // Danica Dolezal 10 // Monica Carson 20 // Kim Wilms 311 // Alaine Olthafer 36 // Teresa Rusk 911 // Andrea Hill 26.2
Anna Wrecks'Ya 101 // Britknee Breaker 104 // Claire D. Way 1984 // Harley Quinn 9669 // Harlot Fevah 99 // Killary Clinton 2008 // Krushpuppy 843 // Lil' Paine 451 // Lois Carmen Dominator 011 // Marua Buse 34B // Pina Collidah 77 // Quick Sandy 24 // Shellby Shattered -0 Sugar Hits 1001
06 Castro // 67 Dara Licks // 77 Dotti Horror // 22 Elle Viento // 47 Eurothrash // 18 Gefilte Fists // 933 Ginger Vitis // 1972 Gloria Grindem // 527 Heavy Flo // 11 Ivana Rock // 0049 Mercedes Bends // 99 Miss Fortune // 8 Mo Pain // 668 Olivia Face // 15 Persephone // 714 Robin Drugstores // 305 Shenita Stretcher // 60 Summer Assault // 83 Sunshine Skate // 85 Teflon Donna
Comments
Cover Philly v. Denver!
I really, really, really wish there was coverage of the Philly v. Denver game. Is there going to be a textcast at least? I bet it will be an awesome game.
Yes, there is Philly / Denver coverage
We're super busy in the middle of coverage night right now, but check back later. That's a morning game, there will be a textcast.
Philly Skater Debut
Philly debuted a few skaters this afternoon....in the interest of fun (we are all about the fun) I would like to introduce you to our skaters:
Gingerly Skating
Elle Vien-SLOW
Heavy SLOW
SLOW-Mo
Olivia Face Clockwise
Dara Not-to-move
Ivana Stand-Right-Here
Eura SlowPoke
No Go Castro
Summer StandingStill
Grind'em To-A-Halt
Pause-sephone
Shenita NotSkate
Teflon Dawdle
Thanks to Boston for allowing us this opportunity and of course to Denver for sticking around an extra day all for the love of playing the game! Yea Derby!
private derby, you know like tina turner.
that was really fun! the game was wicked close and exciting.
if you weren't there, there was lateral derby! juke derby! CW derby! sprint derby! hit-hard-turn-left derby! 20 cheering fans! disagreement with officiating! musical (penalty box) chairs! scandal! intrigue! basically, everything you love about derby happened. or, everything you love to comment on loudly at a roller derby bout happened. i like being able to indulge my inner Boston Sports Fan sometimes, instead of having to be a participant all the time. thanks denver + philly for giving us the opportunity to watch some of the best derby in the world. i think i always want sunday afternoon hangover bouts.
thanks denver for coming over to play! it was pretty awesome.
Anna you forgot one thing..
BELLY FLOPZ!
Anna, you forgot something else.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=1482685476825&ref=mf
bummer
I'm sorry but that totally sucks. Also, I love shattered and I'm glad she's rolling again.
Who was it?
Whoa, definitely an egregious major, and called as one, apparently. No excuse for it. So which Denver player was that? "Bea Ware" Rivas?
Anyway congrats to Philly for the win. It sounds like it was a very good game.
re: Bea Ware
No excuse for it. So which Denver player was that? "Bea Ware" Rivas?
Yeah, it was Rivas.
She needs to Be-a Ware of the rules
Sorry, dumb joke, I know.
I'm not proud.
Bea Ware/Rivas here.
I'm atually very sorry about this hit. To be honest, I thought that Shelby was all the way up (in fact, I swore she was)- but Punchy's video clearly shows that she's only on one skate lifting herself up onto her other skate.
>sigh<
It wasn't my intention to hit a downed skater, and I was ejected for it, which is right. The good news is I've learned my lesson. The other good news is Shelby is very tough, clearly.
Thanks to both Boston and Philly for a really great weekend. I personally learned a lot and I can't wait to skate against you all again!
- BW
We all make mistakes!
I'm not sure you could find a skater who's been doing this for a while that hasn't made an error in judgment like this whether it be in a game or scrimmage. I hit someone so hard in the head once that I was afraid she wouldn't get up. It was not intentional by any means and before the impact; I thought I was executing a beautiful and legal hit. I'm sure on video it looked like I was gunning for the poor girl's brain. A mistake like that is something to feel awful about and is only compounded when people make you out as a jerk for doing it. Are there douches out there who pull those moves intentionally? Yes, unfortunately...but the majority of us are just ladies on 8 wheels who sometimes get caught up and make hits they shouldn't have. I'm not taking away the severity of any pain or injury Shelby received and I agree with the ejection call but let's face it, we all f up out there sometimes.
Much respect to you Rivas for posting your comment and like all things that happen on the track, I'm sure you learned from it.
A couple more videos
Denver vs Boston
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7TnY4gAB_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxnsJwcRKGU
Shattered
Glad you're back! Good work.
KillBox hat on (and no others); there is more to derby than sport, lets not hit each other like that, k.
Shattered is one of my all time heroes and it upsets me to see that.
A fan's perspective
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=401225470951&id=604353587
I'd agree with 95% of his comments
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=401225470951&id=604353587
I'd agree with pretty much all that.
The hope would be that a strategy will be discovered/invented that causes this really ugly style of play to not be effective. If that doesn't materialiize by the end of the season then a way to curtail it via the rules needs to be worked out in the off season. What it creates is a boring game nobody is going to pay $10 to $15 to watch. If the desire is for the momentum roller derby is gaining to run smack into a brick wall and have teamns skating in front of their friends and family and nobody else, then this style of play is sure the way to do it.
Here we go again
These are the same comments we received after beating Atlanta last year, and after Nationals last year. And I say the same thing now that I said then: You don't like the way we play? Make us play your game. Oly did.
WFTDA had a chance to revise the rules last off-season, and, as an association, they chose not to. So it seems that there are those who recognize and appreciate the practice and skill it takes to play our game. (Don't believe that? Try it.)
Roller derby doesn't seem to have been destroyed in Denver, where DRD bouts are drawing record crowds (for the state). But perhaps our crowds have had more of an opportunity to learn and understand the strategy and tactics of the slow game, which is why they don't consider it "boring" or "really ugly."
Nobody begrudges anybody
Nobody begrudges anybody doing what's legal under the rules. More power to you. As I said, the best option is for people to figure out a way to make that hideous style of play ineffective. That's the best solution, BUT if that doesn't happen then it's the job of WFTDA to do what's necessary to return gameplay to a style that's best for the "brand". In the 1960's when pitchers were dominating baseball, baseball, lowered the mound. Why, because fans want to see hits, not 1-0 pitchers duels. When hockey turned in a grab and clutch street brawl with very little scoring, hockey changed the rules to make most of that illegal, because fans want to see goals. American football used to be the flying wedge and 9 - 6 games. They changed the rules to open up the offense and make it more exciting for the fans. The same thing applies here. If Roller derby wants the 6885 at Rat city to be the norm nationwide, not the exception, a style that involves skill, speed, fast paced action, fluidity, etc... is what's going to get it there, not a slow moving, clutch and grab, battle for stationary position, street fight.
What Makes a Good Game
I'm not sure why this style of play is so controversial. I've been a derby fan for some time and watching Denver perfect the slow game last season was fascinating and seeing as teams work to overcome it has been great too. In my book, a game being slow or fast isn't what makes it enjoyable, or a "good game". Watching a blowout, at any speed, is what bores me. I had the pleasure of going to Western Regionals last year and saw a couple of games that had about a 300 point spread. They weren't slow games, but they sure weren't fun to watch either.
Agreed!
I think it wouldn't be as controversial if teams that used it, lost all the time. But teams that can't adapt well to this style of play seem to want to get rid of it.
If this game was played on a banked track (which it can't be, hence the 'FT' in WFTDA) then the skaters wouldn't be able to play the slow style game. Skating on a flat track gives the teams the advantage of playing a slow game or a fast game, that's what makes watching FT derby so awesome!-- and if you can't use it to your advantage then I guess your SOL.
That's the difference between a great team and an OK team- adaptability..
I don't want teams to adapt
If they can adapt in a way that allows them to play a fast game in spite of efforts to slow it to a crawl, then that's great, for the third time, the best possible solution, making the slow game obsolete because it no longer works. However, if the only way to beat the slow game is by becoming good at the slow game, then the WFTDA needs to do their job and legislate it largely out of existence. You guys are under the false impression that we (hardcore derby fans) are the ones that matter, we don't. The people that mattter are the people who decide "what the hell, let me check out this roller derby thing", and go to see their local team. A LOT more of those people are going to come back a second time if they see a fast paced, high scoring game than if they see rather than a "Why the f*** did everybody just stop and start leaning on each other" game.
a "fast-paced, high scoring" game
Those shouldn't be lumped in together as though they're related. Last year as Denver debuted their slow style, they dominated the "highest scoring / biggest blowout" charts.
A slow pack = less distance for the jammer to travel to score points = more points scored.
I respectfully disagree
I actually find it much easier to explain to a new fan why teams have slowed down, especially on power jam situations than I do some of the other rules like what exactly the pivot does, reverse poodling, and what happens when the box is full, etc. You talk about roller derby like its the NFL or even worse, Nascar, all owned and operated by one person. What's good for one league might not be what's best for another.
Success isn't measured only in the number of tickets sold.
How to Properly Enjoy a Blowout Game
Watching a blowout, at any speed, is what bores me. I had the pleasure of going to Western Regionals last year and saw a couple of games that had about a 300 point spread. They weren't slow games, but they sure weren't fun to watch either.
Fear not, Achilles!!! Help is on the way. HELLARAD issue #6 is out now and contains specific instructions on How to Properly Enjoy a Blowout Game.
Get your copy at this weekend's Battle on the Bank III in San Diego or poolside at ECE in Feasterville, PA.
xoxo
HELLARAD
www.wearehellarad.com
Funny
Funny, I'd imagine that Denver's deal with a major sporting venue and practically unprecedented crowds (that is, unless you're Rat City) might imply that fans are anything but bored and unwilling to pay to see them. I know I sure as hell find them exciting. But hey, what do I know...
Well..
A winner always draws. If they played that style and were 1 - 6, I imagine the crowds would be quite a bit smaller. We're not talking about Denver, we're talking about what's good for roller derby worldwide as it trys to grow it's audience. We're talking about getting to a day where teams in cities of any size can routinely draw 5 or 6 or 10 thousand fans. You might get there with stopping and starting and stationary blocking and 100 to 80 scores in a defense centered game, but you're much more likely to get there in a face paced, fluid, non stop action 260 to 240 games.
The problem isn't Denver. The problem is nobody figuring out a way to counteract that style causing it to spread, like Herpes.
I've got an itch apparently...
So where else in derby is "the Denver style" also being used right now? If it has indeed spread, like herpes (srsly?), I'd imagine that we'd be hearing about it more on DNN or from other derby sources when they talk about other teams in the country. But the chatter here and on other reputable derby news type sites (e.g., Derby Deeds) only discusses this type of game with regards to Denver.
Like Brad said, this discussion hit its peak after Nationals and many comments stated that others would pick up this style of play... from my vantage point, that hasn't happened yet. I'd love to hear about other leagues' adaptation of this style of play and how it's worked out for them.
Do you have any examples? Or are we still in future hypothetical territory where everyone in the derby-verse has suddenly fallen in love with the Denver style and wants to play that way thus alienating thousands of derby fans and causing a cataclysmic rift in the space-time continuum. [i c ur comparison 2 herpes and i can haz hyperbole 2]
Lest you forget, Denver didn't come away from their east coast trip unscathed. Philly played a tough game and was victorious last Sunday.
I think for the fourth time now
That is the best thing that could happen, and what I hope happens. That teams learn to counteract it WITHOUT adopting it. Unless the WFTDA has their head REALLY up their nether regions (which certainly seems possible sometimes, look at the ranking system and the tournament seeding), then rule changes will come soon enough. It will only take a few completely common sense changes (like skating backwards or coming to a complete stop makes your back a legal blocking zone allowing the jammmer to ram her shoulder in the blockers back at full jammer speed) to put an end to this nonsense.
We get it
You don't like the slower game. You think that WFTDA needs to change the rules or suffer dire consequences. This type of game is "nonsense" and will drive away all casual fans. The horse is dead so you can stop beating it. Moving on...
Let the skaters on the track decide what types of strategies will succeed and what will draw the "casual" fans. The slower game was developed as a way to play the game within the ruleset allowing teamwork to triumph over pure speed (see Duke City & Muffin's enlightening comments on this subject). This type of gameplay is very common for many teams when on a power jam, Denver just uses it more than others. The way to limit the way a team plays is to beat them. Not try to legislate it out of existence because some do not like it or think it is appropriate for others. Oly has beaten Denver twice in the past year and will force them to do something else to beat them as much as Denver tries to develop a strategy to deal with Oly's speed and power. Philly broke out some new strategies and will force Denver to adapt as well. Teams can be innovative to defeat another team's gameplay.
Slow play can make the switch to fast play more engaging
I totally agree, and will add that I think there's a tendency to mischaracterize Denver's play as being 100% slow. I saw the Rat City and Texas games, and based on those games I would say Denver plays fast about 85-90% of the time. Maybe they only do it for their home audiences, or maybe it's just a coincidence, but in any case, part of the Mile High Club's skill is the fact that they can switch between slow & fast almost instantly, and they make it look easy. It's a sight to behold, and it's really exciting to watch these sudden eruptions of speed, perhaps even more exciting than watching a game that's 100% fast.
Thank you!
Im glad someone else out there can see that we do not always play slow. That is the beauty of our game! Its no secret people have seen us play and know what we do........why would we use this strategy all the time? So for those out there who keep referring to Dever as always playing slow you are mistakenly wrong!
Juska
6.9.1
coming to a complete stop makes your back a legal blocking zone
The blocking zones aren't going to change circumstantially. But the rules already state that "...Skaters may not block while stopped on the track. These illegal blocking techniques include positional blocking."
Slow != stopped.
Also - WFTDA is a member-run org, changes are voted upon. If you're a voting member, you can effect the change you want. If you're not, well..
"if you're not, well..."
...your opinion isn't welcome?
good point
I never actually had an end to that phrase in my head, and shouldn't have included it.
I guess my thought is that the WFTDA is not some evil nameless force, it's skater-operated, and skaters have the ability to make the changes they feel need to be made in their sport.
But as my teammates quickly taught me when I strapped on skates, arguing with refs is NEVER going to make them change their minds. Making negative comments about an organization having its metaphorical head up its metaphorical ass is probably not going to elicit a "gee, wait, you're right".
I'm just an announcer
I'm just an announcer of middling experience (4 years announcing, probably 60 or 70 bouts called, 80 or 90 bouts seen). More than some, not as much as others. I speak only for myself, and as a fan and a representative fans. Democracies do stupid things all the time (watch the news sometime if you don't believe me). WFTDA being a democracy doesn't make them right. Sometimes they arrive at really good decisions, sometimes they need to pull their head out of their a** (as an entity). I have an opinion, and I'm entitled to it, and to express it. The issue isn't "slow play", there is a time for slow play. The issue is EXTREME slow play as in stopping or skating backwards on the track. As I said above there is a simple solution to this whole issue. If you stop or skate backwards your back should become a legal blocking zone. A few jammers lowering their shoulders and slamming into a blockers back at 15 or 20 MPH would put an end to most "extreme" positional play pretty quickly. That's my opinion.
Hey.
"A few jammers lowering their shoulders and slamming into a blockers back at 15 or 20 MPH" would also get a lot of people hurt very quickly, and I take exception to you advocating a course of action intended to bully Denver into giving up their successful strategy.
Not likely
Because it would only happen a few times before people stopped skating backwards on the track, which while it may be legal by the letter of the rules, (thanks to WFTDA not having the sense to outlaw it), is bad for the sport. If you're going to skate backwards, and thus use your back to block a jammer (offensively rather than passively), then your back is fair game, no back block, jammer should be able to hit you just as hard as anywhere else. In my opinion.
I can see I'm winning friends and influencing people as usual. I won't count on my Christmas card from Brad.
Bad idea
I share your frustration with Denver's style of play, but legalizing back blocking on a stopped or backwards skating player is stupid and dangerous and will have unintended consequences. For example, take the Denver/Rocky bout at last year's Championship tounament. Catholic Cruel Girl was trapped in a stopped Denver pack, and when the Denver jammer entered the pack at high speed, she back blocked Catholic Cruel Girl so hard that CCG face planted and left the track on a stretcher, carried by EMT's. In other words, Rocky was negatively impacted, not Denver. The Denver jammer just spent a minute in the box, but the Rocky blocker was injured. A rule change such as you proposed will not solve the "Denver problem" and will result in injured skaters.
Let's be logical
If, in your scenario, WFTDA is changing the rules to permit back blocking, in order to discourage stopping or backward skating... why are they not directly outlawing stopping or backward skating (without permitting the dangerous high-speed back blocking)?
Nitpicking the proposed solution
Because it would only happen a few times before people stopped skating backwards on the track
It's bad planning to have potentially dangerous plays also be plays that can at times be strategically preferable. If there's a time when it's advantageous, than a competitive team or player will do it at some time. This is especially true when we're talking about a high speed high impact collision on someone's spine. Remember, skaters don't wear the same kind of padding that, say, (American) football or hockey players are wearing.
If skating backwards is bad for the sport than the solution needs to be one that makes it illegal, not unsafe.
I have a question about the
I have a question about the legality of that. If a skater is skating at you backwards with their back facing you, and you skated forward into their back intentionally, does the clockwise block penalty override the back blocking penalty?
If the clockwise block is the one that gets called, I know it's messed up, but wouldn't that be a strategy to employ to counteract backwards skating? It would be tough for refs at times to see when the skating backwards stops, especially if skaters are getting hit in the back.
And at that point, who's trying to get someone hurt, those asking skaters to skate backward into skaters who are supposed to go forward or the opposite?
I want to follow all that with the unequivocal statement that seeing someone get hurt at a roller derby bout is one of my least favorite things ever.
Well I'm just a coach
and I would never advocate any of my skaters slam into an opposing blocker's back even to "prove a point", just my opinion as well. How do you differentitate between a "stopped skater" (who we are very aware is not allowed to engage or risks penalties) and one merely going very slowly forward? We give the referees enough rules to focus and and trying to make the split second decision whether a blocker was standing stock still or moving however slowly forward is nearly impossible. Shall we institute a "minimum 1 mph while blocking" requirement? Yes, I am using the sarcasm font because this issue has been hotly debated in multiple forms before in this very forum.
Skating clockwise is to improve position within the pack and not to engage another skater while moving clockwise. Our skaters are very aware that they expose themselves to engagement when they do move back in the pack and are generally careful when they do it. The slower pace of play requires "extreme" teamwork and pack awareness. Aimlessly skating balls out and just trying to t-bone opposing skaters is what I saw five years ago and in my opinion not the type of game I prefer to watch. I think that teamwork and strategy, however controversial, creates the innovation that keeps the game fresh. I also agree that everybody here is entitled to their opinion, no doubt. I just know issues such as this will generate some strong rebuttals as folks feel impassioned. All good debate. But as we can see throwing out strong opinions generally result in stronger responses. Verbal escalation in the name of derby!
Exhibit: Charm City vs Kansas City on Saturday
PLENTY of slow and opposite-direction play from both teams. Judging by the reaction of the fans, they were pretty happy with the bout - it had been a long time since I'd heard DuBurns that loud. (To be fair, that something to do with the fact that it was the all-star home season opener and the crowd was REALLY happy to see the home team do well after the Hotrod Honeys totally squashed the Charm B team.)
Kansas City played DC the next day, and once again employed a lot of going backwards.
There was also quite a bit of extreme positional play in Charm City vs. Rocky Mountain last month, although Rocky definitely got the better of it.
Charm City's next bout is against Denver on July 24. I genuinely can't WAIT for that one. A meeting between those two teams will cause printed copies of the ruleset to spontaneously combust all over the country.
Agreed
[anecdotal evidence] My parents were in town and it was only the second bout they'd ever been to. They were in that position where they now understood the game and could begin to see when and where different strategies were being employed and why. Their favorite moment of the night was the moment when Joy Collision was skating backwards to force the KC jammer to come in behind her, but when Joy noticed the pack was skating backwards with her, she turned a 180 and skated backwards at full speed. The whole arena erupted with excitement![/anecdotal evidence] Removing backwards skating entirely would be a loss, but I do think it's something that the entire derby community needs to continue to follow.
And I'm tempted to print a copy of the ruleset in the hopes that Justice's prediction comes true. I am at least in agreement about being incredibly excited to see that bout.
A true Joy
Just wanted to say I finally had the pleasure of seeing Joy Collision in person recently and was amazed. If there were some kind of Fantasy Derby League, she'd be one of my top picks.
what i find interesting..
is that a fan felt that he wanted to write and post his comments about what he saw. This is just his perspective. As a fan, not as an expert.
as for the rest of this debate, i feel like those who have played in, reffed, announced, volunteered at (etc) a million bouts have a unique perspective on roller derby and may enjoy watching something that to a common fan may find less enjoyable to watch.
last one
Just because it's a favorite response I like to give.
I think fans really liked the fake fighting, too.
really?
I expect athletes to take a dump on fans whenever possible, but for some reason I expected more from derby girls. Guess I should lower my expectations and cheer in the hope for fake fights.
Some thoughts
I get that people don't like "the slow game." That's fine. I personally hate the traditional "skate fast, turn left, hit hard (but not actually that hard)" model because half the time it turns into two teams speed skating in two minute increments with far fewer quality hits than in the slow game. What I don't get is why people want there to be a rules change to prevent a certain style of play. I would understand if it was impossible for teams to counter this style and that it guaranteed a win but we've seen quite a bit that that's not the case. What major team sport has only one strategy and one style of play? I can't think of any.
Take Football for example, you have teams that rely on a heavy passing game to outscore their opponents and then you have teams that rely on a heavy ground game to manage the clock. I personally don't enjoy watching a team run the ball over and over with little to moderate yield. It's not super exciting but I can respect what it's trying to accomplish and I'm not trying to petition NFL rules into changing how often a team can run the ball.
I know a few people have already mentioned this but if the opposition to this style of play was so overwhelming then it would have been changed by now. The slow game isn't going to kill roller derby, having one style and no variation will.
Clockwise skating != the
Clockwise skating != the "slow game". Clockwise skating and stopping are not legal in the interleague banked track game, and they still have the slow as well as fast when the defense can trap a goat.
I don't object to any part of the tactic except this: The penalty is called "track cutting" for a reason, and the intent of that rule is so clear that it's built into the term. Being allowed to skate clockwise to force an out of bounds skater to enter behind the point where she exited, turns that penalty into something completely different. The purpose of the "track cutting" penalty was to prevent a skater from skating around a blocker or blockers to avoid a block, advancing her position relative to the track in that snapshot in time and her position relative to the blocker.
In no way imaginable can the term "track cutting" make any form of literal sense with a clockwise repositioning to force a skater to enter behind her exit point. Nothing is being cut, and I propose a moratorium on allowing the tactic until somebody comes up with a proper and catchy replacement phrase :) Oh, and the refs would have to retire the crossed forearms hand signal.
If the blocker came to a complete stop, she'd still be in a position counter-clockwise to the point where the skater was knocked out of bounds.
The elimination of "passive blocking" as "blocking" (a call by tradition, rather than one explicitly stated in the rules), only counting contact as a block, made clockwise positioning a practical strategy. The track cutting penalty in an extreme positional tactic mocks the elimination of passive blocking. If it has the game effect of a block, it's a block. The only other example of this is using extreme positioning to force blockers out of play. But that doesn't mock the terminology used for the foul, itself.
All that said, a team would have to be really stone stubborn to not use it if it's legal. You can't unilaterally fight a rule or tactic by not using it. And if you don't practice with and get really proficient at it, you won't have the counteracting tactics down either. You'd be at both an offensive and defensive disadvantage.
Could not agree more.
This is the one strategy in the whole "slow game"/"stop pack" strategy that I have a problem with. It makes no sense that's it's track cutting if the jammer comes back in behind where she went out. It's called track cutting not skater cutting (that would probably just be a straight up expulsion but way more exciting than the clockwise track cut force).
Facebook post not public
I can guess what the post says, but all I see is "You must log in to see this page" ...a.k.a. "Freak! Why aren't you on Facebook?"
I think that was my point.
@Maimsey
My point exactly.
My inherent jerkiness
I apologize if I came off as even more of a jerk than I really am (no small task). I'm not saying I have all the answers, I certainly don't. I also don't diminish ANYBODY'S wins. They were fought for an earned honestly under the rules. I applaud you for them. I am just passionate about roller derby as we all are, and have strongly held opinions I don't mind sharing. I think the game needs to be steered a different way. You are free to disagree. I appreciate WFTDA (the entity) and everything they do and have done for this sport. That doesn't mean I think they (the entity) are always right, or that they shouldn't be told when I think they are doing something not in the long term interests of this sport.
back blocking
From my understanding, and please tell me if this is incorrect. If a skater sees an opposing player coming up from behind her, the skater in front can jump in front of her causing the skaterbehind her to back block her, resulting in a back block? (did ya get that?) I ask because I saw this on Saturday and was not sure if it was simply a missed call, or if that was legal to jump in front to draw a back block?
Slow Game
I like a team that plays smart derby. If being slow is going to rack up the points at that moment, do it! Jammers don't go to the box and it wont happen! Refs Don't call a major back block on a jammer if there is contact with a STOPPED player! This will help!
shenita
Thanks denver
For helping philly work on our lateral footwork. We are using muscles we have never used before in derby. You have only make us stronger! buhhahaaaaa
Shenita
In Defense of Innovation
I am growing more and more weary with this debate. I am totally fed up with people playing the "fan" card.
I am a fan, just like everyone who reads DNN. Being a player, ref, NSO, coach, blogger, photog, volunteer or sponsor does not preclude you being a fan of derby. We're all fans. There is no clamoring public outside banging on the doors begging to enter the fortress. It's us. YOU are a target market, yo!
I am a fan and I LOVE watching skilled teams who execute the "slow" game. I know a lot of other derby fans who agree with me. So, when you say, "fans don't like it," that's just not true. You don't like it, and that's fine, but don't speak for all fans.
As was stated by Jackie earlier, the "slow" game adds a "third" dimension to flat track derby. It's innovative, athletic as hell, and difficult to execute effectively. (Try to run it successfully in practice sometime if you're not used to it.) The sweeping changes of speed, direction and tactics makes the game more complex and cerebral, which, if you ask me, makes the game MORE interesting to watch.
Almost every derby team with a modicum of skill implements some version of the "slow" game at some point during power jams. The team with which I am affiliated is NOT a "slow" team, but they do implement the "slow" game when it is advantageous to do so. As a coach, I would be furious if the rules were manipulated in such a way to "outlaw" this tactic.
Banning "slow" derby by tinkering with the rules would not make the game better, it would make the game more one-dimensional. It would also certainly have unintended and undesirable consequences for many other parts of the game. Furthermore, banning "slow" derby would set a bad precedent that innovation is not welcome in this sport.
The argument that "fans don't like 'slow' derby, so WFTDA members should severely overhaul the rule set to please the fans" is ignorant, and here's why:
Fans don't like it when jammers get sent to the box, but would you seriously support a rule change that did away with jammer penalties? Of course not.
Fans don't like blowouts, but would you suggest that teams be prohibited from scheduling their own games or playing unranked teams? No.
Fans do like fake fights (as Kendra Blood said earlier) but would you seriously support a rule change that encouraged fake fighting? No.
Other Fun Examples:
Fans do like home runs, so should MLB outlaw any pitch that isn't a fastball?
Fans do like car wrecks, so should NASCAR encourage more contact during races?
I could go on and on, and I can already hear P. Murder shouting, "Straw Man! Straw Man!" Nonetheless, the innovation of "slow" derby will encourage more strategizing, more training, more new skills, and a more complex and interesting game that takes on its own character and becomes something quite unique and different from its bank track roots.
I say, give it time! "Slow" derby will be woven into the fabric of an evolving new sport. It will become one tactic among dozens implemented by the best teams into every game. It will make derby a better, more dynamic and skilled sport in the long run.
I say, Denver and Duke City and Charm City and Rat City and Mad Rollin' and the dozens of other teams who have pioneered and refined different strategies and skill sets for manipulating and dominating pack control and pack speed have done so for the benefit of their teams, but also for the benefit and growth of the sport.
Yes, I like to watch it. I find it fascinating and exciting and interesting. I also see that it is a sign of growth in our sport. I can't wait to see what's next.
I say, leave the rule set alone, brothers and sisters. Let's have one set of rules for a couple of years and see what happens. Let it go, let it grow!
Amen.
TLDNR
TLDNR
Agreed and an Attempt to Kill this Thread (June 2010 version)
Cheers, agree with just about everything Quad wrote. Good stuff.
In an attempt to finish this thread I will now invoke Godwin's Law (tongue firmly in cheek) and let's all move on to this weekend's ECE and BOTB action: Hitler hated the slow game! Blitz derby, baby!
in sports, the only constant is change
The argument that "fans don't like 'slow' derby, so WFTDA members should severely overhaul the rule set to please the fans" is ignorant, and here's why:
Fans don't like it when jammers get sent to the box, but would you seriously support a rule change that did away with jammer penalties? Of course not.
Fans don't like blowouts, but would you suggest that teams be prohibited from scheduling their own games or playing unranked teams? No.
Fans do like fake fights (as Kendra Blood said earlier) but would you seriously support a rule change that encouraged fake fighting? No.
Other Fun Examples:
Fans do like home runs, so should MLB outlaw any pitch that isn't a fastball?
Fans do like car wrecks, so should NASCAR encourage more contact during races?
You call those examples 'fun,' but I call them 'extreme' ... and 'made-up'.
Let's rewind to the 1950's. Fans don't like teams passing the ball around for ages and ages, so should the NBA institute a shot clock? Oh, hey, they did that.
Let's rewind to 1969. Pitchers dominated the previous seasons, and all offensive stats were dwindling away. Should MLB lower the pitching mound? Oh, hey, they did that.
Let's rewind to 1972. Fans don't like watching pitchers be automatic outs, nor seeing their favorite hitting stars forced out to pasture. Should MLB institute a designated hitter? Oh, hey, they did that.
Let's rewind to 2008. Fans don't like legitimate home runs being disallowed, so should MLB institute instant replay for home run calls? Oh, hold on, they did that.
Let's rewind to earlier this year. Fans don't like the outcomes of overtime games being overly-dependent on the result of a coin flip, so should the NFL tinker with their overtime rules? Oh... right...
You see where I'm going with this... These cited rule changes were totally marketing decisions, not the results of player polls or coach polls...
Yes, 'by-the-players and for-the-players' is the WFTDA mantra, and it works well in a lot of ways. However, the idea that the rules shouldn't be used as instruments to proactively encourage or discourage certain styles of play, independently of marketing considerations (perceived or otherwise) is, uh, short-sighted.
I don't begrudge anyone's style of play at present, as long as it's within the rules. My main point here is that a 'keep marketing away from our rules' policy COULD be a pretty fatal misstep for the sport.
The obvious problem, of course, is that we don't seem to have enough data to conclusively show what the market wants from modern roller derby. (Yet...)
So Quad, when you say
The argument that "fans don't like 'slow' derby, so WFTDA members should severely overhaul the rule set to please the fans" is ignorant...
I would agree with this statement only insofar that we don't have a lot of data about what present and future fans do or don't like or want. If we could conclusively know what the market wanted, it wouldn't be ignorant, and it could be weighed appropriately -- along with what skaters want and along with what internal marketing leaders conclude -- as we all hold hands and asplode toward global popularity.
Not the best points
Let's rewind to the 1950's. Fans don't like teams passing the ball around for ages and ages, so should the NBA institute a shot clock? Oh, hey, they did that.
Poor example. As someone who's state didn't have shot clocks in high school and has seen this strategy worked to perfection, this is a joke to point to. It made it so there was 90% standing around and 10% actual basketball. Slow derby is still derby. Passing the ball around for 5 straight minutes is not basketball.
Let's rewind to 1969. Pitchers dominated the previous seasons, and all offensive stats were dwindling away. Should MLB lower the pitching mound? Oh, hey, they did that.
Are the slow teams dominating derby? If they were, I'd agree, but the strategy can be defeated as seen by the fact that no teams who institute this strategy being in the national championship game last year.
Let's rewind to 1972. Fans don't like watching pitchers be automatic outs, nor seeing their favorite hitting stars forced out to pasture. Should MLB institute a designated hitter? Oh, hey, they did that.
Good point mostly except for the fact that the NL didn't institute it because it's completely stupid and a lot of fans hate it.
Let's rewind to 2008. Fans don't like legitimate home runs being disallowed, so should MLB institute instant replay for home run calls? Oh, hold on, they did that.
More of a case of being fair than pleasing fans. It takes 5 seconds to review the video and see if it's a correct call or not. There's no reason not to do it but tradition. Instant replay should be a part of every sport IMO.
Let's rewind to earlier this year. Fans don't like the outcomes of overtime games being overly-dependent on the result of a coin flip, so should the NFL tinker with their overtime rules? Oh... right...
It was a stupid rule. There are plenty of reasons to overturn a stupid rule.
The only stupid rule that should be overturned is the idea that "track cutting" means that the person blocking you out of bounds can skate backwards so if you come inbounds in front of her, that's somehow "cutting track." If I'm standing in line and somebody leaves the line, I'm no longer cutting in line if I move up, right?
Really?
Most people that know the rules understand the strategies. Where your problems are is when the fans don't understand things that happen. "Why did she get that penalty?", "Why did she stop?", and so on.
If you want fans to enjoy ALL of the strategies, then we need to educate them. Then you will hear fans saying, "ohh, ohh, slow down", "did you see that girl barely get back in legally, that was close", "what a great play", and so on....
The skaters and refs are barley up on the rules, how do you expect fans to follow?