Weekly Rollup & Open Thread, 5/14/2010
Two weeks of link action, since last week's edition fell victim to Friday travel:
First episode of Gotham's TV experiment is online in its entirety -- really good mix of bout action and skater interviews.
Completely awesome and super-incredibly-cute web comic from Lucy Knisley, a very very very dedicated fan of the Windy City Rollers.
Least surprising league split ever.
Very in-depth interview with Jerry Seltzer about his views on today's derby (he likes it).
This article on the Cincinnati Rollergirls veers dangerously close to by-day-by-night territory in the opening, but stick with it; the second half is actually quite good.
If you live in Cooperstown and you like minor league baseball and you're not doing anything on June 6th, you're in luck.
Derby Deeds is definitely one of the best derby podcasts we've ever heard -- really good conversation, news and analysis from all over the place. The current Episode 4 covers the Texas trip to Colorado, Team Legit vs. San Diego and the action from Spring Roll ... most assuredly worth a listen.
AK-40oz battles The Man. You can help!
As they say, there's an app for that.
Finally, if you missed it earlier this weekend, check the video highlight reel from Denver vs. Texas ... in glorious HD!
Comments
Just what I needed
Another web comic to follow!
Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness. That Denver v. Texas vid is so entertaining. Between Denver jammers picking up knees to toss a pivot away to Shank pulling a purposeful clockwise block after her jammer got laid out....things are so much better up close and personal. Gah. I just want to watch over and over again. I'm inspired to get some blue spandex pants and shiny silver panties. Denver, you got a bad rep last season, but you gals are tiiiiight and I was happy to see the slow game pulled when it was strategically necessary.
Thanks Olive!
We have a great videographer in Frank X. Hogan - he actually created a documentary of the forming of our league a few years back - he really catches some great moments!
And yes! Proof that the Denver Roller Dolls can and do skate forward!
Congrats!
That was a great game to watch! Congrats to Denver.. always pushing the sport forward with new trends and techniques we haven't seen before.
-Shannihilator
Atlanta Rollergirls
Wisconsin River Valley / Bull Falls
That 'least surprising league split ever' made my jaw drop. I mean, whoa.
So how many stayed with the WRVRG?
Also - love the webcomic, podcast, videos, etc.
Thanks for getting their name (or acronym) right, mb5311.
I can imagine that the league that has almost the same name in another state (which I believe predated that league by years) has been getting some hostile emails over the story about that completely-unrelated league with a somewhat similar name.
As to your question, I don't really know. I should imagine the original league in town might have difficulty scaring up interleague opponents as word had spread pretty fast about the situation.
There was some chatter in news story about the league and skaters not supporting anyone's particular viewpoints. As if that sort of made it OK.
Let's see, I have the legal right to tattoo "EAT SHIT" on my forehead. Some of you would no doubt fight to the death to defend my right to be that stupid.
When it would come to making friends, finding dates or getting a job, I would expect my expression of my feelings would cause me problems. I'd imagine I'd see a bit less of my sisters' kids. I imagine the skaters in my league wouldn't have been terribly open towards me volunteering for them. I'd imagine that my best friend would be named "Max Factor."
There were a carload or two
There were a carload or two worth of skaters from the original league at our league's finals a few weeks ago. I believe one of the skaters was even picked semi-randomly from the crowd to be a contestant during our "Win Rev. Nørb's Beer" halftime shenanigans. I don't know exactly ((or even roughly)) how many skaters remain on the league, but it's not just like down to two people or anything.
I spoke to the league's founder for a while; his goal is to be a banked track renegade league within two years.
Regarding opportunities for interleague play, i know the league had a home-and-away series scheduled with the Des Moines Derby Dames, and that some of the skaters will be participating in Stateline's annual mixer this month. The league does play by WFTDA rules during interleague play.
Hell on Your iPhone
Upon downloading the app linked above, I noticed that a "Hell on Wheels" app was also released within the past 7 days or so. It's $10, which is $9 higher than my app purchasing ceiling - but if anybody wants to bite and tell us what it includes, I wouldn't mind. It appears to be the very, very excellent film and a few extras.
Dumptruck to host SNL?
DO IT!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=118669878167020
What is Dumptruck and why
What is Dumptruck and why should they host SNL? Do you mean for them to be the musical guest?
Dumptruck is a...
Dumptruck is a derby announcer and event emcee. His personal Facebook page is at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dumptruck/86725974980
The description in the 'Dumptruck to Host SNL' Facebook group that MercyLess linked to explains (sort of) why he was nominated.
DNN coverage of California Derby?
This may not matter to the rest of yas, but hear me out, please. Hopefully this is the right place to post this. I asked recently how I could help covering the Big One and it turns out the guys aren't sure they have the staff or resources to cover it at all.
WTF?!
There is a lot of derby in California and a LOT of good teams playing at the Big One. There's not a lot of ranked teams, its true, but hey, Californians, if you think your leaguemates, fans & sisterleagues are going to want to see you play at Big One, then its time to step up and make it happen.
DNN needs smart internet fuckers & resources to work on the networking - um, anyone think we have those in California? And they need money or Frequent Flyer miles to send a DNN guy out there to manage the coverage and troubleshoot everything. There are a thousand derby businesses in CA - surely some of them are willing to pony up some sponsorship, too.
Here's what it took DNN for recent Wild West tourney coverage:
http://www.derbynewsnetwork.com/2010/03/behind_scenes_dnn_wild_west_show...
They need your donations to make it all happen:
http://www.derbynewsnetwork.com/2010/04/funding_dnn_2010
Claim CA so they know you want to see the Big One!
And they need smart, fast-typers/talkers with the ability to be professional in their coverage to text or voice cast, as well. Contact Hurt for more info at hurtreynolds at derbynewsnetwork dot com: hurtreynolds@derbynewsnetwork.com.
If you want to see derby covered in California, YOU can make it happen. Please repost. Socially network the shit out of this! DNN at BIG ONE!
DNN's biggest fan,
Ivanna S. Pankin
aka Thrift Store Joan of Arc
Stoopid Question?
Checking out the Gotham TV Experiment and watching some Rose City stream footage, I gotta ask the hardcore kids out there: don't you find the action difficult to follow?
Now I've filmed a lot of Derby and I've watched a lot of Derby footage-- and so maybe I'm overly analytical about it, but the constant jumping of the stage line-- flipping from cameras on the opposite side of the track --- makes you have to sorta re-inventory on every cut.
Almost all other sports use a consistant approach to game coverage- single position, center court cameras for actually covering play (Basketball, Football, Hockey, even Horseracing) and sports that intercut other angles during play (Like Soccer) use ground cams on the same side and lateral position so they have the same absolute direction and behave like 'closeup' inserts.
Obviously the rules on how to cover this stuff are still being written everyday-- I just seriously find trying to watch this type of coverage impossible and wondered if I'm just being crazy or if anyone else sees the difference?
I'm in favor of even crazier
I'm in favor of even crazier stuff when it becomes practical. Cameras on the skaters and refs. You'd have to have a really good director to see when the long or static close up cameras will cut together, and you can only expect a few seconds of usable footage at a time, but you'll also rarely be more than 90 degrees off.
But you'd have to be in a position where wrecking $2000 worth of gear a game is an acceptable production expense, and transmitters are small enough that they can be padded for the skater's protection.
I think the main issue is switching cameras at or near 180 degrees without an intermediary cut. But hey, ya gotta work with what you have and the production value was pretty watchable. I watch (non-oval) auto and motorcycle racing sometimes, and that's even harder to get a continuous feel for. They're facing one direction going into a turn, and another coming out of it, and your brain has to really stretch to stitch the shots together.
DreamWorks
Since we're putting together a wish list...
Can I get main camera coverage of the pack with picture-in-picture of jammer approaching/leaving pack? :)
It's a snooze-fest when you're seeing mostly shots of jammers skating the straightways. A big "Thank you, DNN" for getting the most ideal camera angle with the budget/rescources that you have. In my derby dreams...I want both simultaneously.
Am I making shit up, wasn't there mostly overhead (mobile) cameras at Dust Devil 2006? What was that set up? Loved those shots but missed some of the hip level action.
The infield coverage I've seen from some leagues are really nice but the helmet cam shots usually make me vomup.
PiP
That is a pretty clever suggestion, actually... and furthermore, if one jammer's in the pack, PiP the other jammer? PiP makes a lot more sense at higher resolutions than it does in DNN Good-Enough Def™ (I'm looking at you, Vince :)
PiP
Dude, we could cover all the NSO's as well if people gave us the bandwith coin!!
I want a L shirt! :-)
Dr.Johnny Capote
I'm entirely with you on the
I'm entirely with you on the angle-flipping issue and we do try to educate camera people and directors about what the best angles are. You'd be surprised how hard it is to convince some folks that, given a choice, a wide shot of the whole track is almost always better than a narrow shot of the pack or a jammer(s), colorful closeups not withstanding.
It's a matter of natural perspective and the way our brains stitch together the action. When you're at a derby bout in person, your head is only in one place at a time (unless you have better drugs than me) so roughly half of the action is coming towards you, half is moving away, and you're used to seeing it that way. When a camera crew sets up on opposite corners and tries to shoot such that the pack is always coming toward the camera, it's a lot harder for the brain to stitch those shots together into a consistent movie.
That's not to say we shouldn't use different angles, of course. But the "same side and lateral position so they have the same absolute direction" thing is important. No two lenses should be able to stare straight into each other.
Damned straight.
My brain cannot handle reversing the order of everyone in the pack and the jammer(s). I totally lose track of what is happening and get disoriented.
I hope someone from Gotham is reading these posts and can talk to the folks who shoot it for them.
Multiple camera angles good. Multiple camera directions bad.
you rang?
Yup, we're forwarding the comments...
Here in New York we're trying again this Saturday night for Mayhem vs. Queens, and keep in mind that what you'll see on the DNN live feed (8:30 eastern) is the live-switched view, mostly to please the hard-core derby fanatics like us DNN wackos, plus parents / close friends / former teammates, and to train ourselves to get better at live switching and live stats integration.
Then our team goes back and re-switches the bout from scratch, and re-records the audio to re-narrate the re-edited bout, and completely re-integrates the output of the stats system. Tedious? You bet!
The edited output comes out ten days later on local cable / UHF and then gets posted by the city on their media site at www.ggrd-nyclive.com (a URL we made up to point to a very complex city-owned URL)
So what you saw on May 1st might be very different from what you saw on May 13th. And what you'll see May 22nd will be very different from what you see June 2 or 3. In the long run absolutely it's a goal to create a convergence of quality between a live-covered bout and a post-production-massaged bout.
Cool, Hambone.
So what you saw on May 1st might be very different from what you saw on May 13th. And what you'll see May 22nd will be very different from what you see June 2 or 3. In the long run absolutely it's a goal to create a convergence of quality between a live-covered bout and a post-production-massaged bout.
Makes perfect sense to me. It'll be interesting when the recorded shows can integrate more info from Rinxter. So that as they're talking about Bonnie Thunders they can refer to her PPJ so far tonight (and this season) and as they're talking about Beyonslay they can refer to her average +/- per jam. Or their VTAR. I'm all about the VTAR.
Anyways, please don't take my pointed suggestions on camera angles as "that sucked," I was actually quite impressed with how GOOD the show looked. Amazing work, and I'm sure it'll get even better as time goes on.
Rinxter
Many readers are probably unfamiliar with 'Rinxter'.
It's a real-time client-server stats tracking/reporting system designed specifically for roller derby. see: www.rinxter.com
'The team' is working on tighter integration so the video will show exactly that kind of individual data. The data on Rinxter's servers can be switched into the live stream, switched into an edit, available to browser-capable mobile devices (read/write for stats workers, read-only for interested fans / bench managers), or living side-by-side on a boutcast window.
For video integration, graphic templates for each set of statistical info have to be specifically developed and tested to render the data in question. As with anything, nothing's as simple as one might think (i.e.: what if player names are too long, are the boxes placed in a way not to hide action, etc.). But as more templates get developed and tested, more should start popping into 'casts.
Camera placements and derby coverage
No Vince, there's a big difference. A lot of it has to do with the size of the venue, where they can get camera positioned (angle to the track and height to the track), where multiple cameras are placed (if available), and what obstructions need to be dealt with.
The Gotham TV coverage, for example. Really good production quality, but the high walls surrounding the track surface and the team benches being in the center of the track makes it took very cramped. Every time they switched to the (shaky) infield camera there were two or three refs skating right in front of it, and the two cameras setup in turn 1 gave some variety visually but there were still problems getting a good angle over the infield benches to see the back side of the track.
On the other hand, just one camera on a track for events like Spring Roll or Battle for the Coast were enough to follow things around the entire track with no problem, because it was placed high up enough and at a diagonal angle of the track, which had an empty infield except for the referees. A second camera there would be a luxury, not a necessity, because the one camera is positioned just right.
Major sports can cover multiple angles without a problem since the camera placements in major arenas and stadiums are standardized in one way or another. Having years of experience in the production trucks of those sports are a major plus, too. If there's ever a replay showing action from a reverse angle, they make it obvious during the replay to avoid confusion. But yeah, there's totally the 180° rule to consider and other basic stuff like that which some leagues may not totally understand. Or maybe they do, but their venue or equipment limit their options.
Personally, I've always remembered watching roller derby with the camera pointing down a straight with skaters skating into it, i.e., positioned at turn 1 pointing toward turn 4 or positioned at turn 3 pointing at turn 2. Two generations of TV derby seems to follow that logic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7unIaO1B-SE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfDm7lGDnY0
And speaking of that, Vince, have you guys thought about taking camera or two and moving its position to somewhere else in the Doll Factory? The front-and-center high up angle is great, but I would think that sticking a camera in that high VIP section near the exit door (turn 3 side) would make for a nifty angle. Or how about a live handheld camera (steadicam?) in the infield? Just wondering if you guys weren't resting on your laurels. :)
Even crazier than that
The Digger Cam, but for roller derby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59UK4BWL3nI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAi1YkLB_04
Making derby translate to the small screen
Now of course I'm not looking to take away from anyone's hard work-- I know better than most about the limitations of the space, the budget and resources. I guess I'm more thinking out loud, wondering if maybe my whole thought on derby coverage was off the mark and everyone else had no trouble following the 180 degree flip... Since so many great leagues do it (TXRD, Rose City, Gotham) I started to just question if maybe I was the only person who found it jarring.
- I'm also interested in experimenting with cameras-- we've done helmet cams on Refs and on Skaters (including on skates), pinhole cams on uprights... I've built a prototype for a remote camera that would run on a rail hung above the track and would give a front angle that ran just in front of the pack, from above... I have drawn up schematics for another 2-3 gimmicky camera setups.
But in the end, I see these not being useful in a 'live jam' application: certainly would be lovely for replays and color inserts between jams... but I guess I feel like the traditionalist sports coverage is the still the most logical and easiest to follow. Watch closely in a game like football: while they have awesome technologies like Cablecam, you only see that angle used in replays or in the moments before the ball is snapped: once the play starts they are very disciplined in how it is covered. Basketball is the same way: they'll use floor cameras for color right after a player nails a shot or right as they setup for a free throw: but when there is action on the floor they cover it the same way- midcourt high. Auto racing seems to be the only place where they completely shatter these rules, but mostly because their 'wide shot' would have to be measured in miles...
- I agree wholeheartedly (and also have trouble explaining to directors) that often the best angle on the action is the midcourt wide shot covering the pack... My biggest problem with that (and the reason we started doing a 3 camera shot with closeup inserts for Jammers) is the action looks S-L-O-W from the wide. Much slower than it really is-- and this is in Banked track (which, typically, is faster than Flat Track). I feel like having closer jammercams to cut to as inserts during the action helps to give a bit more of the speed you experience when watching in-house. Now I just have to convince my directors to stop cutting to jammercams when they're on the open track alone!
- We also do film with cameras on the floor at turns 1 and 3 as Windyman described (you can see this footage often in highlight reels)-- within the next few games I will get the digital lines run so we can tie those into the main switcher and use them in the broadcasts-- although again I really don't want the director to use them during jams to prevent this stage jumping issue.
The videos Windyman linked to actually largely follow the same style we've been doing in LA, only they did it from the end of the track (but they have a wide and a tight in the same position and cut between). I don't like the 'end of track' position just because you spend half the game with the players moving away from you, with their backs to you. We shoot SDDD from 'end of track' and I find it harder to watch-- although those classic Bombers clips looked good, but they had the luxury of being a lot higher than they do in SD.
And as far as other angles in the Doll Factory- we've honestly shot from everywhere at one time or another. Swig used to film from the VIP stands as well as all 3 'media booth' locations... in the end after seeing it all I think the angle we've decided on gives the easiest to follow coverage. The center court, high with some closeup jammercams for inserts... now we're starting to add the first set of cameras for color between jams (trackside at the turns) and next hurdle: replay.
tl;dr - More cameras and angles are great, but in the end when the game is going, I find the simple classic setup to be the best.
\\V
"Now I just have to convince
"Now I just have to convince my directors to stop cutting to jammercams when they're on the open track alone!"
Hallelujah! Of all the problems I've seen in dealing with bout footage, this is the most frustrating portion of them all. I'm tired of missing important and key action in the pack because the cameras are following a jammer in the open track.
The same point can be made
The same point can be made with the recent incarnation (DNN) of only following the pack. There have been so many times where the jammers are hitting each other and one gets knocked down or a blocker moves up to recycle a jammer back into the pack that were completely missed so we could watch blockers skate around not touching each other.
Ultimately, it just comes down to having more experienced directors in the chair, I think.
You can blame the balls
- I think the instinct of the Director to follow the Jammer even when she's on the open track comes from traditional 'ball based' sports... having directors who have watched more sports TV than they have watched live Derby.
The most obvious model is Football, which follows the ball handler no matter what and in MANY cases this means a Quarterback, dropped back 10 yards-- and absolutely no frame of ref for the receivers down-field. Most of the game is actually going on at the line and in the passing lanes... but we're used to seeing a guy standing there holding a ball and looking down field.
Of course THEY have the luxury of going back, after the play, and showing in-depth breakdowns of the action they didn't bother to show you live. Fuckers. I think having that ability would greatly change how you could cover Derby live.
- Thankfully with our setup we have all incoming cameras on live preview monitoring, so in those cases where Jammers are within striking distance of one another on the open track, the director can keep an eye on them and go to them as they mix it up--- it's just when they're flying solo I don't find the need to follow them much beyond 2-3 strides after breaking the pack. Also our camera guys are quick enough to frame both jammers in the shot when they're within a few paces of each other so we always have a camera on the action, no matter where it happens... it's just a matter of having directors who know where the 'game' is happening.
- My director has been cutting away more during jams to infield reactions-- which I'm not entirely happy with yet. I know there's a way to make it work, it just hasn't really happened for me in a way that felt like "eureka!" yet.
It will all evolve as everything does-- especially with outlets like this where we can get feedback from the other folks trying to do it and from the folks trying to watch it.
Even worse
Even worse than the jammer by herself shot is the crowd reaction shot. During one recent boutcast the operator would constantly pull away from the action to mindlessly pan over the audience as they cheered or booed the action. This while the jam was still on. Spectator shots should be limited to the welcome to tonight's bout intro and the occasional dance party during the 5 minute OTO. And when Randy Pan has 5,000 people doing the wave.
Multi-camera derby
Video production for Rose City continues to evolve. We try something new every week.
What I have found out matches what others are saying on this thread.
1. We position 2 cameras up high at center track along the jammer line. One of them maintains a medium pack shot, while the other goes for a tight shot of a jammer when she enters the back of the pack.
2. The 3rd camera is handheld at turn 2. This camera catches color shots, skaters coming on/off the bench, and generally helps fill the time between jams with the beauty shots of the spectacle that is derby. This camera also does our pregame & halftime interviews.
3. We are starting to create a rhythm of camera work that is predictable to our viewer. For example: When the Jam starts, we begin with a shot of camera 3 (turn 2) of the blockers coming around turn 1. When the jammer whistle sounds we immediately switch to a tight shot of the jammers (camera 2) leaving the line. We follow the jammers until they enter the pack and stay on a medium pack shot for the majority of the jam. Then when the jam ends, we pull another floor shot (camera 3) of a player leaving the track and/or the team bench conversations.
In the process of experimentation we have had primary cameras at the turns (no go), cameras on both sides of the track (nope), and have also had nights of too much fun with the switcher (nadda). We broke the 180 rule at last Saturday's bout due to venue requirements.
Vince Wheel alluded to basketball and football as sports to consider in their minimal production while the ball is in play. I agree. I have noticed how little basketball and football mess with your camera angle when the game is active.
But I think derby might also be slightly different. In basketball / football viewers have much less to keep track of. A person can easily pick out the MAIN story on these sports with a wide shot. The ball uniquely looks like a ball. Each team is either playing offense or defense and their placement on the field tells you what they are doing at that moment. Derby does not have the same type of hints. Everyone is playing offense and defense, and the jammer star is hard to pick out. My eyes get lost in a wide shot as I try to pick out a storyline to follow.
With all the action going on, I start to think that we (video producers) need to pick a storyline to share with the remote viewer. This is what Nascar does. They can't keep up with everything going on out there. They pick a story to talk about and then line up a video shot of the few cars that make up that story. It might be a jostle for second place, a car out of gas, or etc.... In our sport it might be the battle for lead jammer, the struggle to control the pace of the pack, or a tight shot of a blocker who just came out of the box.
I'm starting to think we need to narrow the focus of the remote viewer to tell the story well. Not only does it look better on the smaller screen, but it allows us to display the depth of strategy on the track. Otherwise the viewer needs to have the sophistication to put that together on their own.
This is a great thread and I'd love to hear more about what is/isn't working for others.
Yes!
As a NASCAR fan, I approve of this. :-)
I think you're absolutely right that this is something that will be more common as derby gets more elaborate video production. But this requires good cameras, good operators, good shots, and good announcers who will talk about the 'story' the camera is following. It's a great way to start moving, but not many leagues currently have all the pieces they need to make this work right.
That said, currently the video is primarily for derby dorks. Derby dorks who will rage at the lack of full coverage for the strategy they can understand and want to see and ALL of the beautiful beautiful pack work that deserves beautiful beautiful coverage. So, for the moment, the coverage we've got is sufficient for a DNN boutcast for nerds with nothing else to do on a Saturday night. We know what we're looking at, and what to look for, and what we care about. And we all focus on the part that is interesting to us... as a player I tend to watch more of what blockers do because I block, jammers probably watch jammers, etc. But moving to TV - and personally I'm more for the goal of local coverage like Gotham's got going than the ESPN route - or even archived video from tournaments, I think the future is the 'story' approach. There really is a LOT going on in a tiny space.
And my wishlist? Replays and slo-mo. That is what I want and crave. Desperately.
Hooray for video production and DNN and roller derby. Thanks to all the people that keep it rolling.
I second that
YES to the slo-mo!
We often have viewing parties that are almost entirely in slo-mo.
It's educational AND hilarious.
Can we get Val and Justice some telestrators http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telestrator to breakdown plays during the halftime show?
Sloooooowww.
We often have viewing parties that are almost entirely in slo-mo.
It's educational AND hilarious.
I've been to afterparties that are almost entirely in slo-mo, but those aren't as educational and hilarious until the next day.
Good Info here...
Thanks blazeIt for chiming in! Glad to hear that independent evolution is seemingly leading to similar conclusions!
Our only major difference is I prefer to have 3 up high center, so I can follow each jammer with a dedicated camera. We used to do just LEAD only, but found that, at least in Banked, the position of the non-lead jammer dictated the timing of the Jam so much - so being able to periodically check in with the secondary Jammer position (especially when she was outside the immediate area of the pack) was critical.
For anyone keeping track, here's a recent LADD Webcast:
http://www.justin.tv/derbydolls/b/262524891
And here's a similar one from SDDD, although I don't like the camera position as much:
http://www.justin.tv/derbydolls/b/263503407
Also, since I roll 'tape' in all our cameras, I find that for later highlight footage, having cameras close-up on both Jammer yields the largest supply of good quality big hits on the tape, even if they don't always make it to the broadcast.
- I have to say, and maybe I'm just a closet hater on NASCAR, but I find the coverage difficult to watch. While I certainly get the idea that Derby is different from other sports, I still think it will have more in common with Basketball and Football: neither sport's TV coverage for those is able to really capture all the strategy going on ON the field: but they have tools like replay and telestrator to really recap where possible.
With NASCAR I find their novel solutions are based on the problem of too wide a field to cover-- which I don't think is true with Derby. Although I'd be really stoked to see someone who could make such a thing work, I hope the future brings coverage that does a good job of covering the action and a great job of recapping the strategy... like other pro sports do.
- Its interesting because I don't think most people on the other side of the cameras really realize how intensive replay is going to be. I've heard every hack in the book suggested (TIVO?) and few of them are practical or of reasonable quality, at least for us. We have the added difficulty since we went all HD and digital on the camera side, we now would need to record/buffer and realtime edit 5 streams of 1080i video... simply because that's all our cameras are able to provide. It's gonna cost a pretty penny.
I think DNN and associates will cross that hurdle well before we do-- just because it will be easier with the gear they currently employ.
\\V
Replay
- Its interesting because I don't think most people on the other side of the cameras really realize how intensive replay is going to be. I've heard every hack in the book suggested (TIVO?) and few of them are practical or of reasonable quality, at least for us. We have the added difficulty since we went all HD and digital on the camera side, we now would need to record/buffer and realtime edit 5 streams of 1080i video... simply because that's all our cameras are able to provide. It's gonna cost a pretty penny.
I think DNN and associates will cross that hurdle well before we do-- just because it will be easier with the gear they currently employ.
\\V
Yeah, but when you guys work it out, it's gonna look amazing, and we're gonna hang our heads in despair :)
Seriously though, like you said in response to Blaze Streaming, I really enjoy the fact that we're evolving different methodologies interdependently. It's great that we can watch and learn from your crews as you develop high production value techniques, while we continue to chip away at the barebones barrier to entry end of the problem.
We've actually turned up an economical multicamera software solution -- Vidblaster -- that includes, among other interesting features, replay capability. It requires some significant computer hardware to run, but it's a much more accessible formula for non-professionals than dedicated hardware solutions. One of these days you're just gonna be watching DNN and a replay will just happen. It's gonna rule.
Of course, doing this really well means 1) a director/switcher (a nontrivial staffing requirement -- while textcasting can be picked up by just about anyone, directing video flow isn't something you can just throw a warm body at), 2) a real comm solution, so the sportscasters know when the director is gonna cut to the replay, and 3) a realtime (prestream) monitor solution for the sportscasters so they can see the replay live. That gear is all par for the course for pro broadcasting, but is a whole pile of (dnn viewer contribution) money we're not in a hurry to spend.
I'm glad to see such a lively conversation on these topics! Just like the sport itself, derby media is a giant, collaborative creative endeavor. The more ideas, the better.
Another sport to consider...
Perhaps a pertinent sport to consider the televisual coverage of for potentially useful protocols and parallels that might also apply to derby coverage is horse racing. Whilst the courses are obviously a lot larger than a track that fits in a single room, it has a lot of similar elements to derby - no ball, multiple competitors who all need to be followed, a general pack of competitors who can be difficult to distinguish from each other, particularly when the camera angles keep changing, with individuals frequently speeding away from the rest, and so on. Obviously racing differs from derby in that the most important thing is who's in front, but by the same token, the punters need to know about every single horse because every single horse will have had bets laid upon it. Also, the speed of the race is closer to that of a derby game than NASCAR or other motor races.
Another potential consideration that might be much closer to derby is the madison in velodrome cycling (basically team cycling with added whips: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_%28cycling%29 ), although good luck in finding much mainstream coverage of that event...
Cycling camera shots
Another potential consideration that might be much closer to derby is the madison in velodrome cycling (basically team cycling with added whips: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_%28cycling%29 ), although good luck in finding much mainstream coverage of that event...
That's pretty easy. YouTube it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRi6K8w0_w0
Same deal as I referenced previously: Cameras pointing straight down the front and back straights, but also the 50-yard line camera, too. Other angles help transition between shots, albeit poorly. Madison is extremely hard to follow, so it's a pretty extreme example. It's a good reference, though. This event in particular is useful because you can see a rider break off from the front of the pack and catch up to the back of the field, which is pretty much a guaranteed win in this discipline and what roller derby is all about.
Doesn't matter if it's classic roller derby, auto racing, or cycling: It's pretty standard for at least a camera to be positioned down a straight to have competitors come straight into it.
Speaking about SDDD's setup, I think the problem there is that the camera is in turn 2, not in turn 1. Watching the SDDD/Legit game online was annoying because I found it uncomfortable seeing nothing but the backs of the skaters going down the backstretch. I'm of the opinion that coming toward the camera, a high, straight angle makes more sense. Going away from the camera, a rearward angle from one side makes it easier to follow things going that way. That's what I've always been used to in many sports like that.
So are you for it or against it?
Doesn't matter if it's classic roller derby, auto racing, or cycling: It's pretty standard for at least a camera to be positioned down a straight to have competitors come straight into it.
Speaking about SDDD's setup, I think the problem there is that the camera is in turn 2, not in turn 1. Watching the SDDD/Legit game online was annoying because I found it uncomfortable seeing nothing but the backs of the skaters going down the backstretch. I'm of the opinion that coming toward the camera, a high, straight angle makes more sense. Going away from the camera, a rearward angle from one side makes it easier to follow things going that way. That's what I've always been used to in many sports like that.
I'm confused by this: both the classic derby and the rollerjam stuff you linked to position one high camera at the end: both centered just on the inside edge of turn 1. Classic then added a low cam in turn 2. This was what you linked to as ideal, and then said you find SDDD annoying because they're skating away on the backstretch-- but in all of examples you end up looking at skaters backs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7unIaO1B-SE#t=0m15s
This is why I dislike shooting from the turns cause 50% of the time they're going way from you unless you put a camera in the opposite turn and jump the 180. It means shooting backs half the time all while running in a constant state of extreme zooming and pulling focus. Just feels overly dizzy.
If I had to guess, they shot that way so that the players going over the rail looked more impressive (shooting along the straight rails instead of perpendicular)- not because it followed the actual skating better.
I tried watching the bicycle stuff too and had the same problem I have with derby that shoots from ends and cuts at random, on every cut I basically had no idea where I was or what I was looking at: maybe if I watched more and figured out their rhythm but I could find no relative positional reference from shot to shot... it could have been in a another state.
I still have a DVD somewhere of the LADD bout from HDnet: they brought in professional sports film crew, including a large jib--- some of it is actually pretty good, but most of it is abysmal if you actually want to follow the game.
If you can't shoot down the middle, shoot from the front
I'm confused by this: both the classic derby and the rollerjam stuff you linked to position one high camera at the end: both centered just on the inside edge of turn 1. Classic then added a low cam in turn 2. This was what you linked to as ideal, and then said you find SDDD annoying because they're skating away on the backstretch-- but in all of examples you end up looking at skaters backs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7unIaO1B-SE#t=0m15s
This is why I dislike shooting from the turns cause 50% of the time they're going way from you unless you put a camera in the opposite turn and jump the 180. It means shooting backs half the time all while running in a constant state of extreme zooming and pulling focus. Just feels overly dizzy.
The classic derby video I linked to has very few examples of the turn 2 shot. It was a just an alternate angle they used sparingly, for close-up shots or (I would presume, pre-planned) action shots, like the two jammers taking each other out. They had the two primary cameras high above the turn 1 side, which they used the vast majority of the time. There's nothing wrong with an off-angle shot used briefly, but my gripe is that if an entire game is shot like it was with the SD setup, a camera at turn 2, you're going to see the full backs of the skaters for half of the game no matter what. That would be like focusing on the rear of a car for half of a NASCAR race. If there's only space to put one camera or have one area for cameras, if it's not going to be down the middle it should be in turn 1 (or turn 3). With the turn 1 camera you're still going to see action from the back, but depending on the angle of a turn 1 camera you can get enough of the side of the skaters going down the back straight. People generally prefer to see action from the front or side, not the back.
Also, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the centered camera. Being a sports fan in general I'm also used to that. Having the luxury of a high camera position in the middle like we do in LA is not something that should be changed. Derby is a different animal, but it's also been around long enough for there to be references to fall back on. They must have had a pretty good reason for their cameras to be setup in the way that they were (I don't think I've ever seen a classic derby game with the center camera), so to disregard it due to personal preferences may be short-sighted. Then again, it could have just been a limitation of technology.
Wanna see Justice burst into flames?
Get him a Telestrator. Seriously, it will be the culmination of his whole DNN adventure. We're all excited by the idea of it, but I swear he wants a Telestrator even more than I want a pony.
Justice, Justice, I shall pursue
Hurt, even more than I wanna see Justice burst into flames, I wanna see his head explode. I do believe a well-placed Telestrator would achieve that goal.
[On a personal note, hope you had fun in Australia, HR!]
Canadian Womens Roller Derby Association
Anyone hitting up the bootcamp, co-ed and Canadian All-Star games in Edmonton this weekend? I'm going home for a family visit but will be sneaking out to the game Sat night -
http://www.cwrda.ca/
Jam Cam!!!!!
Since we're all dreaming here....I want a jammer cam....few actually undestand what a jammer sees while skating inside the pack...Great visually & an effective training tool also.......Jam Cam......
PS...I have seen Justice's head blow up & yes, it is very entertaining.....
I'd be interested to see artificially stabilized cams
My guess is it would be as simultaneously cool and barely watchable as those Mad Rollin' Dolls ref helmet cam clips from last year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w17q14L3CSg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEO_M5swue8
Nevertheless, if you could get some raw footage, I'm wondering if any of the stabilization/'deshaker' post-processing options available now would work well enough on it to make it watchable.
helmet cams
having worn a helmet cam a couple of times ... i'd suggest that any stable, comprehensible, non-nauseating helmet cam footage = the wearer isn't doing their job very well. That goes for blockers, jammers, and refs. And Bane-ana.
Skater cams can work, but
Skater cams can work, but only if they're very wide angle. You can't watch an entire game like that, but 3 seconds of it can add a lot of action, and if you cut to it at the right time when something interesting follows from a wide shot, it can bring you into the action in a way that neither a close up or wide shot can.
Part of the problem with watching derby in video is that it's very chaotic, and it's hard for someone really not super familiar with it to zero in on where they need to focus their attention. Also, the crazy swings of action from a helmet cam add a kind of action that is exciting that enhances the "fast/slow" feel that makes you appreciate the calmer, slower longish shots, while engaging that part of the brain that's craving easily accessible energy.
The action doesn't have to be comprehensible and if you happen to catch that hit coming into the picture as the skater's head turns that she sees at the same time the view does, it's a golden moment. Just by luck alone, you'll catch that kind of action maybe 5 or 6 times a game. If you have a director who knows the game well enough, they'll anticipate that shot and take that camera knowing what's coming up, even if the skaters are in the moment and don't see it coming.
Personally, I like videos of players backs!
Having had to watch some videos to try to compile actions, I actually prefer watching the players backs as it usually makes it easier to glean the players' uniform numbers so you can properly credit them with blocks, etc. Due to the less-than-perfect video available of derby matches, even if you know the players it's next to impossible to ID them by facial features of body styles in video. Although, just like at a live game, there are times you can use certain "spotting features" (different color socks, etc) that can make it easier to tell certain players from others on the videos.
Rusty Wheeler
Detroit Derby Girls
RMRG at Rat was easy to follow on video
I've really enjoyed this discussion of the state of live derby video. Doing it well is obviously a unique challenge in the sports world.
FWIW, last night's RMRG-Rat bout was the easiest bout to follow on video I've ever seen. This bout appeared to be in a practice venue which no doubt affected the videographer's approach. The camera was somewhat higher up than I'm used to seeing -- that made a big difference for me.
Elevated camera position
We're definitely on board with the idea that elevated is the way to go for camera 1. The challenge now is figuring out how to actually accomplish that on a regular basis, on a DNN budget! We learn new tricks about that every time out, though.
Elevated vertical and horizontal angles
Elevated works well not only on the vertical--last year's ECE, but in the horizontal--Dorton Arena bouts in NC and the recent Denver vs. TX bout.
Cheap steadicams
We're definitely on board with the idea that elevated is the way to go for camera 1. The challenge now is figuring out how to actually accomplish that on a regular basis, on a DNN budget! We learn new tricks about that every time out, though.
Speaking of camera angles and doing things on a DNN budget, if you (or anyone) is using a hand-held camera around the track or in the infield, consider making it a steadi-cam to make it easier for the viewers at home to see things. You can make a does-the-job-just-fine rig for $14:
http://steadycam.org/
Especially for having things in lower resolution for Internet streaming (or DNN's "Good Enough"-Def™), the less shaky or jerky a camera is, the easier it is to see what's going on.