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Eastern Regionals Capsule Recaps

  • Carolina's Holly Wanna Crackya is stuck behind Boston's Pussy Venom and Anna Wrecks'Ya as Carolina pivot Billy the Kid comes to help. Photo: Ziv Kruger.
  • La Diabla faces off against Philly jammer Persephone. Photo: Ziv Kruger.
  • Providence blockers Jetta Von Diesel and Trophy Knife follow jammer Baby Fighterfly as she tries to make a pass of CT pivot Parker Poison. Photo: Ziv Kruger.
  • Connecticut jammer Revengela tries to make her way past DC's dr. SKabs and Guantanamo Babe. Photo: Ziv Kruger.
  • Dominion's AmERICA the Bootyful puts a hit on Steel City's Snot Rocket Science. Photo: Ziv Kruger.
  • Pistol Whip, Duchess of Torque and Dolly Rocket bottle up DC jammer Lois Slain. Photo: Ziv Kruger.
  • Gotham's Donna Matrix tries to cut off Craisy Dukes, while Gotham jammer Bonnie Thunders looks for a lane. Photo: Ziv Kruger.

Sunday Bouts | Saturday Bouts | Friday Bouts

Championship bout: (2E) Philly 90, (1E) Gotham 89
-- See full recap here.

Third place bout: (5E) Boston 156, (3E) Charm City 143 -- See full recap here.

9th/10th place bout: (8E) Connecticut 156, (10E) Dominion 57 -- Although they did jump out to an early small lead in this bout, low seed Dominion didn't have too much more luck in the 9th/10th place game than they'd had all weekend long, ending their tournament experience 0-3 and losing their bouts by totals of 208, 207 and 99 points. Penalties were an enormous factor in this bout for Dominion, and the final ten minutes of the first half saw an incredible example of that, as Dominion jammer AmERICA the Bootyful managed to go in and out of the box as the jammer for 5 jams in a row, a streak that saw her finally foul out of the half while the CT lead jumped from 42-13 to 91-13.

It looked like Dominion was on their way to another 200+ point loss, but they put together an unlikely run once AmERICA's consecutive sentences in the box were finally over -- DDG put 27 unanswered points on the board to close the half and continued hacking away in the second half, getting some crowd support by getting as close as 105-54 with 13 minutes to play. Unfortunately, Connecticut reasserted complete control of the game in the final stretch, putting up 49 unanswered points before AmERICA the Bootyful closed the bout out with a 3-0 that managed to get Dominion's margin of loss just under triple digits.

Dominion ended the tournament in 10th place, the same seed they had coming in, while Connecticut finished one slot below their original seeding in 9th place.

See DNN's archived boutcast here.


5th/6th Place Bout: (4E) Carolina 125, (6E) Providence 73
-- In the 5th/6th place game, tournament hosts Carolina dominated Providence in the first 20 minutes of the bout, up 48-5 to start. Providence did get a little more offense going as the first half drew to a close, starting with a 13-0 jam for PRD's Craisy Dukes while Carolina fan favorite Princess America suffered under blocking assault from Sass E. McNasty and Trophy Knife, but the half still ended with Carolina safely in front 70-26.

Carolina established their biggest lead of the bout about halfway through the second half when Billy the Kid, jamming for the hometown girls, put up a 15-0 that made the score 97-39, giving Carolina a 58 point lead. However, Providence was much improved for the remainder of the bout after that, answering that big one immediately with a 19-0 for Craisy Dukes and outscoring Carolina over the last 15 minutes 34-28. The halftime lead, though, was plenty safe and Carolina managed to close what had to be a somewhat disappointing run on an up note by winning 2 out of 3 bouts and finishing 5th in the tourney.

See DNN's archived boutcast here.

Comments

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highs and lows

The scores really sort of disappoint me. I mean, these are regionals, shouldn't teams be more closely matched? I'm all for the underdog getting their chance and all, but these really lopsided scores - is it just a bad game or are the teams really that unevenly matched?

Yeah, I agree. The blowouts

Yeah, I agree. The blowouts are kinda boring to watch.

blowouts

with steel city vs. dominion... Dominion was originally not slated to enter the tourney but several teams declined their invites for whatever reason -funding or time issues. So if Pittsburgh played a team closer in rank, that game probably would have been closer. Dominion hasn't had a lot of interleague experience recently and was sporting a lot of new players, although this was good for them to get back into it and see what times of training they need to work on.

As for Gotham, they blow out a lot of teams, so that's no surprise.
Charm vs. DC ... well DC tried really hard but they are still a pretty new league playing a league of experienced skaters who have had a tight schedule this year. They were playing their 2nd game and Charm was fresh, now they know they need to work on their endurance/conditioning to be ready for future tournaments.

the games later tomorrow and Sunday should be a lot closer and crazier.

on 'blowouts'

Also let's not discount the fact that the east region teams play each other a LOT, and the fans and skaters see each other a LOT, and their seeding was bound to be pretty accurate. The 4/5 matchup was an upset, and the 8/9 matchup was an upset, but any matchup more than 1 seed away was a blowout. I think that speaks to the polled skaters' acumen more than anything else and they're all working with the benefit of a relatively large dataset.

A few things...

Two teams ranked high enough to skate in the tournament declined their invites (#7 Harrisburg, and #9 Maine). DC was offered and accepted an invite to skate the tourney as the 9th seed (others already in moved up as a result).

Montreal would have been next, but they hadn't skated their second sanctioned Eastern bout until the third quarter (leaving them ineligible to participate). This disappointed my Quebecois half. It would appear that Dutchland Derby Rollers were offered an invite and declined it.

The invite was accepted by Dominion, who had had to decline last year. That had the #14 team (out of 15 ranked) in the region seeded at #10. Are you getting the picture?

As I'm sure you know, the East has a concentration of VERY good and consistent teams at the top of its rankings. Number three in the East (Charm City) is a fair match for any region's #1, and beat some #2s (Detroit, KCRW) rather decisively this year

a priority

voted on by the member leagues was the chance for more leagues to get tournament experience.

That means a lot of newer leagues getting their first taste of tournament experience resulting in some big gaps in score. I imagine next year and the year after that, we'll see a blanket increase in play as all these teams learn from the experiences.

Experience

Blowout or not, giving some of these teams the opportunity to go to regionals and play tougher teams is the best learning experience ever. How awesome is that?

i totally agree

don't expect blowouts the rest of the tournament - and i agree - the lower seeded teams are getting invaluable track time with teams that they're not likely to get outside of tournament play.

lulu lockjaw wrote:

Blowout or not, giving some of these teams the opportunity to go to regionals and play tougher teams is the best learning experience ever. How awesome is that?

boring? what??

lulu lockjaw wrote:

Blowout or not, giving some of these teams the opportunity to go to regionals and play tougher teams is the best learning experience ever. How awesome is that?

Despite being a little short in our roster by having only 12 skaters able to go to Easterns, I can tell you that CT was eager to make the most of our first tournament invite this year, no matter what happened. Our whole league got behind our travel team and helped with the fundraising, and they busted ass training for these games.

Lulu is right: a tournament is a HUGE learning opportunity, win or lose. We went in trying our best to bust ass and win, and so far, things haven't gone our way. But I certainly wouldn't call my teams, or ANY of the other games I've seen this weekend boring. Every single team there is working their asses off, and just watching makes me happy to be a part of this fabulous sport and community.

Bettie Mercury
CT RollerGirls
Proud to part of the WFTDA, woot woot

It is nothing against you

It is nothing against you personally, or against the teams who are competing, but as a paying fan who isn't a part of the derby clique, every game this weekend has been a snoozer.

I hope the finals matches up the ante.

It doesn't have to be an upset to be a good game

clever name wrote:

It is nothing against you personally, or against the teams who are competing, but as a paying fan who isn't a part of the derby clique, every game this weekend has been a snoozer.

I hope the finals matches up the ante.

So only upsets are interesting to watch?

There is some fine-ass derby being played this weekend. Props to east region voters for pretty accurate seeding and props to tournament teams for putting everything they have on the track. Experience is the best teacher and even the blow outs have showcased beautiful derby action.

the derby clique

clever name wrote:

as a paying fan who isn't a part of the derby clique, every game this weekend has been a snoozer.

I think this perspective is important for us to keep in mind. Are we hosting tournaments for league development, or do we want to be a sport that reaches outside of our derby clique? Serious question, and one that would probably garner 100 different answers.

If we're happy with low-res, slightly glitchy video coverage plus boutcasts, and we contribute enough to support that, then we're already there (and the idea that the derby community can be self-supporting on that level is already impressive to me). But if network broadcast is a goal, a weekend where the closest score was ~60 points until the final two bouts is a hard sell. Those of us who know the game--and who often personally know many of the players--can appreciate moments of amazing skating independent of the score, but that's a difficult way to hook new fans.

Not if you just try to sell

...the last two bouts.
And maybe that's what marketing/broadcasting folks should focus on for now.

Look at say, the US Open-- in the women's draw even in the round of 16, hell, even in the semifinals and finals you had pretty lopsided matches. And these are professional athletes.

It's simply the nature of sport. Some teams/ athletes are just better than others. You can do your best to try to provide for exciting competition, but there are no promises unless you want fixed outcomes.

Regional tournaments really are different things to different people... and exposure to tournament play is often what flicks the switch to be like, "Holy cow! I want to be like that..." Our sport is still in a tremendous growth phase, and we need to create those opportunities to facilitate competitive growth.

Nationals, I'm confident though, will be a different beast. I mean, have you LOOKED at the brackets and begun to make match-up predictions???

xo,
Loco

2 different things

So what I heard when the tournament bracket for regionals was announced was that the leagues that got seeded higher should have an easier path to nationals even though it was expained that the association tried to meet the needs of the membership by providing for closer bouts. Now what I'm hearing is that the bouts were blowouts and that sucks for the sports. Obviously not everybody is going to be happy and I guess it's easier to sit at home and complain than to think of the implications of both complaints. Should Gotham have faced Dominion in the first round? Should Philly have faced Gotham in the first round, I mean I think our organization is working with what we have and it's not the WFTDA's fault that there are wide skill discrepencies in each region. And also, it's kind of disheartening that some leagues get an easier ride to nationals than others, but that's the way things will be this year and it's the disadvantage of having a competitive region.

It is what it is

Holly Gohardly wrote:

So what I heard when the tournament bracket for regionals was announced was that the leagues that got seeded higher should have an easier path to nationals even though it was expained that the association tried to meet the needs of the membership by providing for closer bouts. Now what I'm hearing is that the bouts were blowouts and that sucks for the sports. Obviously not everybody is going to be happy and I guess it's easier to sit at home and complain than to think of the implications of both complaints. Should Gotham have faced Dominion in the first round? Should Philly have faced Gotham in the first round, I mean I think our organization is working with what we have and it's not the WFTDA's fault that there are wide skill discrepencies in each region. And also, it's kind of disheartening that some leagues get an easier ride to nationals than others, but that's the way things will be this year and it's the disadvantage of having a competitive region.

This is a classic issue with any sort of seeded tournament play in that the higher seeded teams do get an easier path to the finals. In part, it's a reward for busting your tail all season, but it also gives the lower seeds a real shot at an upset using the "any given day" scenario. The issue of potential blowouts in the early rounds is just part of the deal, but it seems to be more prevelant in derby because each league is honestly as competative as it wants to be. I'm not saying that everyone doesn't want to be as good as they can be, far from it; but I don't believe there is a standard for training requirements (not just skills) as an example. Some leagues will have a more rigorous training program or more experienced skaters... The result will naturally be an imbalance between leagues and eventually regions.

The only solution I see (and I'm not saying it's a problem, it just is what it is) would be something like the NCAA basketball tournament, with teams traveling across the country to balance out the brackets. Clearly not going to happen, but a few cross-regional bouts each season along with as many tournament opportunities would help elevate everyone. In the meantime, each league just needs to continue to focus on being as good as they can be and keep learning from each other. That's one of the best things about the derby family, everyone is always willing to help everyone else get better.

BTW, great job Carolina! I hope all of the injured skaters are back up soon, and we'll see y'all in Atlanta!

Honestly

There needs to be less teams in the regionals. 40 teams is obviously too much. Some of those lower seeded teams don't really have any reason to play the top seeded teams. If you know without a doubt going into the game who the victor is going to be, that's probably not a good playoff system.

If you want to give these younger leagues the chance to play in a tournament like this, fine, but don't complain about blowouts because you can't have one without the other.

East seeding

I also want to add that Dominion, seeded 10 in the tournament was in actuality 14 in the east according to the Q2 2009 rankings. 2 teams that were invited: Harrisburg and Maine declined invites, then Montreal did not satisfy requirements to participate in regionals (playing 2 teams in the east region by the 2nd quarter) and Dutchland passed on their turn. This means that Steel City moved up 1 spot from 8 to 7, Connecticut moved up 2 spots from 10 to 8, DC moved up from non placement (11E) to 9 in the tournament and Dominion moved up from 14E to 10 in the tournament.

All the more reason

to have less teams in regionals.

Don't misrepresent my words.

Don't misrepresent my words. I never said an upset is the only game that is interesting to watch. However, nearly an entire weekend of games that are horribly lopsided is a pretty hard sell for someone to fork over 50 bucks to watch - I'm not there to pay to watch teams gain "experience" - but to enjoy the competition - as a fan. When the games are generally not very competitive, you can see why myself and others may not enjoy the tournament.

If all you want is to slap each other on the back for a job well done and not acknowledge that there are people who come to the bouts that do not participate in any other capacity than as paying fans, then roller derby will stay pretty insular. My criticism is entirely valid, and it isn't mean-spirited.

The top tier matches, upsets or not, were exciting. I am happy Boston finally got their trip to Nationals, but it is unfortunate that it may have come at the expense of so many injured Baltimore players.

I have to say

That I agree somewhat with Clever Names sentiments. Is our annual regional tournament really the place for people to gain experience? Or should that be left more for voluntary entry tournaments like ECE and Fall Brawl? Should we divide into divisions and have the top teir leagues exclusively play each other at tournaments, and the less competative leagues only play each other? This is all up for discussion as we speak. Its hard to predict exactly what will happen in advance, its a growing sport and not every decision the WFTDA makes is the right one. but before we dismiss this guy as being a jerk, we should lsiten to what he is saying. He is one of the few fans that cares enough to post on DNN. A lot of the postings here are refs (actual secret fans), and skaters.
I always cheer for the little guy, and I think yes, the more tournament experience you have the better your league is going to be. I want the WFTDA to be inclusive, but at the same time, we have to make sure we put on a good show. I do have to say that every eastern region tournament I have ever been to have been very lowly attended by fans. Lots of away games I've played this season have also been lowly attended by fans. If we want to grow our sport, we need to consider the wants of the people that are actually paying to watch us. Don't yell at this guy because he is being honest.

Dolly Rocket
CCRG

Video

Hey, just wonderin', is the video going to be archived in case we have to miss any of the games live?

(hope! hope!)

:)

Yes!

I have been told that we are archiving the footage on justin.tv so if any of you are unable to watch live at your home, you can watch later. :)

-Xena Paradox, Photo Editor
Derby News Network

woot!

That rox! Great!

Good, because i actually had

Good, because i actually had to stop watching right when the bouts got good because the Packers were playing the Bears and at least Val understands how that works around here.

correction?

maybe i'm reading the schedule wrong but i think dominion goes on to play carolina (not CT)?

Sweet N. Lowdown
UAE Roller Derby
Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates

Yep, corrected.

Sorry. Sometimes roller derby is confusing.

Dear Sweet N. Lowdown, It is

Dear Sweet N. Lowdown,
It is my understanding that you started with Tucson roller derby and were instrumental in getting Dominion off the ground and into the WFTDA.
So, how are the Abu Dherbi rollergirls coming along?

UAE

Dahmernatrix wrote:

Dear Sweet N. Lowdown,
It is my understanding that you started with Tucson roller derby and were instrumental in getting Dominion off the ground and into the WFTDA.
So, how are the Abu Dherbi rollergirls coming along?

hi dahmer,

yeah, i skated one bout with tucson's iron curtain before moving to VA and joining dominion. they were already an established league with a lot of hard-working women - my addition to the league was mainly with training and interleague relations and we were accepted into wftda about 7 months later.

the uae is of course a whole different ballpark, er... skate rink. once we (myself and two fellow expat derby girls that are also here) decided we wanted to start a league, it's been slow-going to get off the ground. we are finally making some progress though and are working to get an article in the paper within the month to garner some more interest. we still desperately need an indoor practice space (it is HOT and HUMID for way to much of the year) and we're hoping the media coverage will open something up. anyway, if you're interested, i'd posted something here awhile back regarding our challenges and immediate goals:

http://www.derbynewsnetwork.com/blogs/hurt_reynolds/2009/05/and_then_the...

sometimes the task is incredibly daunting. but when i watch derby online during weekends like this, my heart just totally aches to skate again. (GOD. I. MISS. IT.) i think any derby girl who's ever had to sit out because of injury or life circumstance could relate - we love it too much to just let it go that easily, you know?

Sweet N. Lowdown
UAE Roller Derby
Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates

oh, and now that you've read this far... we're in the market for a logo designer... i hate asking for free things when the economy is so crappy but if anyone with a bleeding heart wants to give their time and talent to a charitable cause (namely, helping to bring the sport you love to the women middle east) we promise to trade you all the hip cool UAE derby swag. once we have it.

is it time for more derby yet?

hating that i'm 8 hours ahead of the east coast. wake up and skate for me!

Sweet N. Lowdown
UAE Roller Derby
Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates

As much as the blowouts disappoint...

...it is a great thing to see these team's improvement from year to year. The teams that are being dominated are playing some awesome derby compared to the dominating teams a few years ago (even last year). It is really neat to see the evolution of derby as old teams try to hold on and new teams push them around.

FANTASTIC AMAZING TRIVIA

FANTASTIC AMAZING TRIVIA FACT: Had DC scored one more point in the first bout of the tournament, there would be no game in this tournament thus far where the victor did not score at least twice as many points as the loser.

score

I had it a Philly game in my bracket- but I had 101 to 99 - I was super close though! AWESOME game

OOOOOOOOOOMG PHILLY.

THEY RULE MY FACE OFF. We've skated against them twice now and it's been *this* close...those ladies never disappoint. I knew there was a reason I've worn a Philly pin on my hoodie for two years running.

XOXO
Miss Moxxxie
Announcer/Retired All Star
B.ay A.rea D.erby Girls
www.wearehellarad.com

Yes. One wonders what the

Yes. One wonders what the game would have been like if Charm had been full strength.
At the same time, Boston looked amazing. And to be prevented from Nationals twice by a total of 3 points?!? Charm is great and I'm sad they didn't advance, especially after their killer season, but this is Boston's year.

If I were not a player and a regional tournament were going on in my town, I'd probably wait until the last day to attend, to just catch the top teams. If all fans followed suit would tournaments lose money? That's an important question to ask when evaluating the player benefit vs fan benefit of tournament structure for future years. Otherwise it seems like a fair compromise to continue as is, and just accept that first round and consolation games are important to the players but not worth the price of admission to the fans, and expect the last day of the tournament to be the breadwinner.

It all depends

Dahmernatrix wrote:

If I were not a player and a regional tournament were going on in my town, I'd probably wait until the last day to attend, to just catch the top teams. If all fans followed suit would tournaments lose money?

On how host leagues price tickets.

If I recall correctly, at the Northwest Knockdown last year, single-day tickets to Day 3 were more expensive than single-day tickets to Day 2 (which, in turn, were more expensive than single-day tickets to Day 1).

If a host league can effectively segment their market (e.g. fans of the home team only/ general sports fans/ derby community people who are travelling/ &c) and if there's minimal overlap, there's absolutely no reason why they can't make as much money (OR MORE) and bring in a bigger crowd than they would be able to otherwise.

Of course, this is hard--it requires a lot of research... but I definitely think it is doable...

Just my thoughts.

xo,
Loco

Profitability

Dahmernatrix wrote:

If all fans followed suit would tournaments lose money?

I'd be more than a little stunned if they weren't losing money as it is??

Here's the tricky part(s)...

19 out of 20 derby fans (or more?) follow only their local league/teams. They may be vaguely familiar with a semi-frequently appearing regional rival, but that's about it.

So their main interest in attending a tournament is seeing THEIR HOME TEAM play. If that team is done for, they may not care to see the rest. And well, 10-12 straight hours of roller derby action isn't every fan's cup of tea. Even if the ticket price is incredibly low for that amount of derby.

Carolina and I think one of the other two tournament organizers managed to get ranked so that at least one of their bouts was "prime time." In those cases, some more local fans probably bought tickets.

One ex-promoter I'm friends with tends to fixate on the numbers of skaters in the audience at today's tournaments. I explain that we don't yet have a national following. By national following I mean that with football fans, they may be rather silly and follow the Bills. They're also familiar with the nearby divisional/regional rivals Patriots and the Jets. And if the schedule has them playing the NFC West SF 49ers, they still know what they're getting (another loss).

Our derby fans know only what we tell them about the teams we're playing. As often as not we don't even accurately reflect on our sites/flyers whether we're actually playing their travel team (I know this better than just about anyone from setting up bouts for this site). Many leagues do not even mention that they're playing away games on their schedule. Other teams are "a bunch of strangers from another city/state that we cheer for our girls to beat." For the most part that's because we don't have TV and the news helping us (as they know less about it than we do, and care even less about it than that).

As for how we get the fans over that hump, I don't know yet. It could be done with sites like this one, but it's mainly drawing skaters and others who are already in the know. From what I can see, anyway.

I'll give a data point

Poobah wrote:

As for how we get the fans over that hump, I don't know yet. It could be done with sites like this one, but it's mainly drawing skaters and others who are already in the know. From what I can see, anyway.

For me DNN was pivotal in introducing me to derby outside of Baltimore's interleague teams. I had only been into derby for a couple of months and while I knew there were other leagues in other cities I didn't know about WFTDA and that there were regional and national tournaments. Now I probably follow CCRG more fervently than the local teams (although I still love to watch the local bouts).

Being on the East Coast has given me a great opportunity to see lots of great teams come through to play B'more as well.

Dixie's mini tournament experience

Dixie hosted a small tournament (6teams) here in Huntsville, AL in July. We just barely broke even. But the only reason we didn't end up in the red was because of 1) other derby folks that traveled from nearby leagues and 2) Nashville's amazing fans. Man, those girls have awesome fans!!

We did have a larger crowd for the game with our home team, but that wouldn't have pushed us over the edge with out Nashville's folks.

Well...

I think we need just a few things to help:

1) Set brackets to try and avoid blowouts. In all four regional tourneys, the #1 seed plays the #6 seed straight away. Either randomize it (after rankings are decided) or fiddle with it a bit so multiple bouts are not (at least in the public's mind) foregone conclusions. This would have to be done blindly prior to releasing the rankings to avoid accusations of favoritism, and we could use the same layout for all four regionals.

2) Allow the hosting league to set the time of their first-round (Friday) bout. The Brawl has Minnesota's first matchup at 2:30 in the afternoon on a Friday. In addition, the North Stars - also from the Twin Cities - kick things off at 11:30 in the morning. For leagues that consistently draw 3,000+ (MNRG) and ~1,500 (NSRG) fans to every bout, imagine a near-sold-out crowd (The Roy can seat ~4,200 in its roller derby configuration) for those two games in the two late spots Friday night, then drawing people back for two more days of bouts!

Well said, John.

We saw a similar problem for the MNRG/MRD bout at eastern regionals last year, where very few of the Madison crew were able to make it out that first bout for the hometown girls.

I completely understand fairness and uniformity in how the matches go down - but when all things are equal, it does no harm to make allowances for the home team crowds so that the sponsoring teams will have a better shot at being able to bring more fans to the seats.

No

1) Tournaments should be designed to decide the best team or teams. Period. If you start having random teams play random teams, you're going to end up with random teams advancing to nationals. What if Gotham and Philly played in the first round? Do you really want a nationals without Gotham?

It's something that is a reality in all sports except for sports with playoffs with very few teams. There are blowouts in the first round of the NCAA tournament all the time. It's a fact of life if you're going to have 40 teams in the playoffs. There's too much disparity. The big mistake this year was the structure of the second round. The WFTDA said it would set up better matchups but in my opinion (and definitely what happened in the East), it just insured 3 blowouts and 1 good game instead of 2 blowouts and 2 good games. As it is, it's #6 vs #1, #7/#10 vs #2, #8/#9 vs #3. It should be #8/#9 vs #1, #7/#10 vs #2, and #6 vs #3. That 6/3 matchup has the potential of being a really good game whereas the current setup doesn't really allow for any good games until the semifinals except #4/#5.

2) This would only be possible by changing the number of teams in the tournament or the number of days the tournament is played on. You can't have North Star play their first game at night because they have to play in the first round game in the morning so if they win, they can play their second round game at night. If you changed the number of teams in the regionals to 8, you could do this, no problem. It would also mean less blowouts as you're taking out the 2 lowest ranked teams.

In my opinion, there's just too many games to expect an average roller derby fan to sit through. Nobody is going to go all day unless they're REALLY into derby. I think, for now, you just have to promote when the home team plays and promote the last 2 games of Saturday and Sunday nights. Those are the games that could get the interest of an average fan and they're the games that are most likely to be good non-blowouts.

I hope nobody takes this the wrong way (even I know many will). No disrespect to Dominion but they didn't win a game this year. There is no other sport on the planet where you can lose every game you play and be able to play in the postseason. It's something you should earn and you just don't earn it in roller derby as it is now.

"No"? How about "Maybe"?

I see what you're saying on my first point certainly, but I'm looking at this from a marketing filter rather than a pro sports one. What will get people interested is a lot of good bouts. Randomizing would give better chances of good bouts than 1v6, 7/10v2, etc.

> Do you really want a nationals without Gotham?

What I want is irrelevant but I want five exciting tournaments. Had Gotham been fighting Philly for third place, the excitement and outcome would have been even more powerful. Which is why I like the idea (in my fantasy tourney) to have the 3rd/4th place bout be the last one, because the ramifications for both participating teams are much higher. But I digress.

> This would only be possible by changing the number of teams in
> the tournament or the number of days the tournament is played on.

Well, a tournament in the Twin Cities is a special case. There's no WFTDA league that has another WFTDA league playing 15 minutes away from their venue. I'll concede that having the 8v9 later in the day is kind of sticky, but I'll stick to my assertion that the first bout the host league plays on Friday should be as close to prime time as possible to allow for maximum attendance.

Maybe not

John_Maddening wrote:

I see what you're saying on my first point certainly, but I'm looking at this from a marketing filter rather than a pro sports one. What will get people interested is a lot of good bouts. Randomizing would give better chances of good bouts than 1v6, 7/10v2, etc.

Will it? Sure, we could have gotten a Steel City/Providence game but we also could have gotten a Philly/Dominion game if it's truly random. The only way to insure good matchups is to pick and choose which teams play each other but then it's not a tournament. Besides, how many more good matchups can you possibly come up with? The #9/#10 game was a blowout. The #8/#9 game was a blowout. The #7/#8 game was a blowout. The #5/#6 game wasn't very close. The #4/#5 game was a blowout. The #3/#4 game was a blowout for awhile. The #2/#3 game was a blowout. Where are these great games going to magically come from? THE CLOSELY SEEDED TEAMS PLAYED EACH OTHER AND THEY WERE ALMOST ALL BLOWOUTS. There's too much disparity in roller derby to expect a ton of good games. It's just something people have to accept except maybe in the North Central and the top half of the West.

John_Maddening wrote:

What I want is irrelevant but I want five exciting tournaments. Had Gotham been fighting Philly for third place, the excitement and outcome would have been even more powerful. Which is why I like the idea (in my fantasy tourney) to have the 3rd/4th place bout be the last one, because the ramifications for both participating teams are much higher. But I digress.

You're so focused on good games and making things exciting that you're forgetting that this is a sport, not a movie. Do you really think the Philly/Gotham game could have been any better? Maybe if the actual national championship was on the line (which we might see). You have to have the championship game last. I know what you're saying, there's more on the line for the 3rd place game. So? Why does that mean it has to be last? Tell people to come for the last two games. One in which a trip to nationals is on the line and the other in which the regional championship is on the line. There's plenty there in both games for people to get excited about. Plus, if you put that Philly/Gotham game before the Charm/Boston game, that Charm/Boston game would've been pretty anti-climactic and everyone would've probably left when it was a 70-point game.

John_Maddening wrote:

Well, a tournament in the Twin Cities is a special case. There's no WFTDA league that has another WFTDA league playing 15 minutes away from their venue. I'll concede that having the 8v9 later in the day is kind of sticky, but I'll stick to my assertion that the first bout the host league plays on Friday should be as close to prime time as possible to allow for maximum attendance.

But, then you're screwing over teams that might have to play in back-to-back games in order to MAYBE sell a couple hundred more tickets. Again, this isn't a movie. It's sports. Let's allow for the best sport to happen, not run out a tired team again 10 minutes later so some people can get off work and come watch. Plus, if the home teams win the morning session, they'll play in primetime anyway.

This is true.

thebigchuckbowski wrote:

But, then you're screwing over teams that might have to play in back-to-back games in order to MAYBE sell a couple hundred more tickets. Again, this isn't a movie. It's sports. Let's allow for the best sport to happen, not run out a tired team again 10 minutes later so some people can get off work and come watch. Plus, if the home teams win the morning session, they'll play in primetime anyway.

For example, Madison's first game at DiD08 was early Friday morning. If they won they would've played WCR Friday evening. They didn't win, so they got a consolation game or two. If they lost their 2nd to last game, we (Boston) would've had to play the same team we played in the first round (i think?), but that didn't happen. SOOOOOOO.... Madison played their last game with us on that sunny Sunday afternoon which isn't 7pm prime time, but prime enough that they had a crap ton of their cowbell ringing fans in the building.

I have an opinion too!

I have strong feelings about this issue in particular.

I think it's EXTREMELY important that the host leagues of the WFTDA tournaments break even.

I don't think altering the tournament structure is a good way to ensure that the host league breaks even.

I love this quote from thebigchuckbowski: "Let's allow for the best sport to happen." I think THAT is the big picture and that's something that will help the sport (and the WFTDA) grow more than any other single factor. In the end, we're selling a legitimate sport, so let's allow the best sport to happen in every case.

The best sport is not always a "close game," nor is it a giant blow out. The best sport is a fair game played by two serious compeitors and officiated by "professional" staff.

There is no way to ensure close games in derby. That's not rankings, that's just derby. "Close" games are actually pretty rare. You see two teams play and they are separated by just a few points. They play again a couple weeks later and they are separated by 60.

You know what I'm saying. It can happen with a jammer in the box at the exact wrong moment. Twenty point jams back-to-back.

Two evenly matched teams play a close game and then all hell breaks loose in the last five minutes and it ends up in a fifty point blowout...

OR... two evenly matched teams play a game that is a blowout in the first half, but the momentum shifts and the losing team comes roaring back in the second half to win in the last jam by one point...

OR... a completely outmatched team (on paper) plays within a hair's breadth of a legitimate top 5 team because their style of play matches up well on the track.

This stuff happens ALL THE TIME in derby. It's what I love about derby. No fancy seeding system is going to ensure it OR protect against it.

All you can say at the end is the best team that day won that day.

We have good ranking systems (WFTDA and DNN) that pretty regularly (but not always, thank god) predict the outcome of a matchup. We should use these systems to structure fair and transparent seedings that ensure the best teams have the best (fair) chance to advance and play each other for the chance to go to Nationals. You don't want your top four teams to have to play each other before the semi-final games.

The brackets need to be based on standard tournament seedings--that is, 1v8/9, 2v7/10, 3v6, 4v5. Seeds are based on "regular season" standings. A tournament should be structured so that the four highest seeds have a direct path to the semi-finals before facing each other. That's transparent. That's sports.

I, for one, want the best three teams in my region to represent my region at the National Championship. I want the best 12 teams in the country to represent my sport (yeah, I said it) to the world at the National Championship. I don't want the third best team in my region knocked out of the regional tournament by the second best team in the first round while the eighth seed advances to ensure that crowd is (maybe) thrilled by "close" games. That's not transparent; that's (faulty) marketing and not good sport.

I think when you start mixing up marketing with actual games(wo)manship, you are getting into murky territory. We are already trying to prove that modern derby is sports, not sports entertainment. When you start mixing up ticket sales with tournament seedings, you're starting down a slippery, slippery slope that our sport needs to be distancing ourselves from as much as possible.

Again, this is all just my own individual personal opinion. While I feel strongly about it (because I feel VERY strongly about derby in general) I absolutely respect the discourse and admire the way the WFTDA has grown the sport and the way they've organized, re-organized and pulled off the tournament system.

I don't think it's broken; I think it's beautiful.

I can't wait for the rest of this tournament season! I'm just looking to the future. One thing that the WFTDA has proven over time is that it will continue to improve on itself each year.

Last but not least: CONGRATULATIONS TO PHILLY, GOTHAM AND BOSTON!

[Longest post ever! Woo-Hoo!]

Response, or?

Response, or - best response ever!? Thanks, Quad, for typing out those awesome paragraphs.

For historical accuracy purposes...

anna wrecksya wrote:

For example, Madison's first game at DiD08 was early Friday morning. If they won they would've played WCR Friday evening. They didn't win, so they got a consolation game or two. If they lost their 2nd to last game, we (Boston) would've had to play the same team we played in the first round (i think?), but that didn't happen. SOOOOOOO.... Madison played their last game with us on that sunny Sunday afternoon which isn't 7pm prime time, but prime enough that they had a crap ton of their cowbell ringing fans in the building.

Anna, you are correct that Madison did play the very first game of 2008 Eastern Regionals, but they won that one, over Minnesota ... and moved on to play (and lose to) Gotham in what was close to prime time Friday night, 6:15pm. Windy City didn't play their first bout until Saturday morning.

Dallas and Denver

John_Maddening wrote:

Well, a tournament in the Twin Cities is a special case. There's no WFTDA league that has another WFTDA league playing 15 minutes away from their venue.

Minor correction as both Denver and Dallas have leagues in the same cities and a drive from the Rocky Mountain Rollergirls venue at the Bladium is within 15 minutes of both the Denver Coliseum and the Fillmore where the Denver Roller Dolls play.

I can't speak for the locations of Dallas' derby venues but Assassination City and the Dallas Derby Devils do co-exist in the same metropolitan area as well.

Also RMRG and DRD are co-hosting the Western Regionals this year at the Bladium... it's gonna be awesome sauce.

You're absolutely right about

You're absolutely right about DRD and RMRG. I feel dumb, but I *am* an announcer, so that's about par for the course.

What I had meant to say was about teams like that in tournaments in their home city. Which was also wrong, because I am, as referenced earlier, dumb.

My point is that both leagues in the Twin Cities pull a lot of fans, and it would be ridiculous not to try to parlay that into high tourney attendance.

Also...

You can probably add that Rat City and Jet City are darn close to 15 minutes apart. Assuming no traffic, I could get from one venue to the other in 20.

Well maybe... maybe not.

John_Maddening wrote:

I think we need just a few things to help:

1) Set brackets to try and avoid blowouts. In all four regional tourneys, the #1 seed plays the #6 seed straight away. Either randomize it (after rankings are decided) or fiddle with it a bit so multiple bouts are not (at least in the public's mind) foregone conclusions. This would have to be done blindly prior to releasing the rankings to avoid accusations of favoritism, and we could use the same layout for all four regionals.

I don't think most fans can tell a foregone conclusion from the best, most-even matchup available. They know their league's travel team and maybe one or two others. All of our web sites are fairly focused just on OUR team(s). Fans don't tend to come to sites like this. They're either into their team win (or do a good time losing) or they're just plain into watching any group of girls knock the daylights out of each other. The latter group won't know or care anything about the other teams anyways.

What I think is changing for the better in this regard is that leagues will be sticking closer to home. At least those outside top ranks, who are vying for higher regional rankings as opposed to finding high level opponents to prep for Nationals. In theory, this gets the fans used to who else is in the area, which may make them more willing to come out and see other teams play each other in their town.

And these brackets were set up to avoid blowouts. It's not the bracket's fault that WFTDA has vast variances in experience, skill and strategy. It's not the bracket's fault that a few qualifying teams opted out. Honestly, I think we'll see blowouts (but perhaps fewer and less gratuitous) in North Central and South Central, whereas in the West we may see closer yet less-predictable bouts.

John_Maddening wrote:

2) Allow the hosting league to set the time of their first-round (Friday) bout. The Brawl has Minnesota's first matchup at 2:30 in the afternoon on a Friday. In addition, the North Stars - also from the Twin Cities - kick things off at 11:30 in the morning. For leagues that consistently draw 3,000+ (MNRG) and ~1,500 (NSRG) fans to every bout, imagine a near-sold-out crowd (The Roy can seat ~4,200 in its roller derby configuration) for those two games in the two late spots Friday night, then drawing people back for two more days of bouts!

Just because MNRG hasn't done so doesn't mean that they couldn't do so. Not that I'd really know. They'd have to get it past Games.

HERE'S THE GOTCHA THOUGH. Changing one little detail of when the team plays means needing to change when NEXT they'd play (if in the same day). The schedules are set up such that a team playing in the bottom level prelims has so many bouts worth of rest to recover before they play again. What if doing what you ask would have one team bouting two hours after their last while another gets a nice five hour wait? The order that the bouts fall into probably is more of a key detail than you might realize from a cursory glance.

Don't worry, I have no power.

We're just brainstorming here. Talking about how to get more people to bouts.

Were we to focus on the sport completely, we could go to a double-elimination tourney style. It could make the teams who lose their first game have a chance to still make it in.

Which returns us to the problem of...

...too many games, or not enough officials, or...

Which is why we will be grousing about this for the next several years until tournaments and weekend-long exhibitions become more common-place, or the entire infrastructure of volunteers become too jaded and burned-out to care [grin].

I don't think anyone would argue that having more folks at these tournaments would be a bad thing; I would be surprised if the fine folks who are thinking about 2010 tournaments didn't already have a few ideas about how to make it better.

When it comes right down to it, I think I just want the Roy (site of the Brawl of America) to be as stuffed to the gills, intense, and LOUD for all fifteen BoA games as it can be for a hometeam championship. Until that dream is realized, I don't think I'll ever be satisfied. But that's because I'm a closet PR hack.

Chuck! You coming to the Brawl?

-Garrison