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WFTDA Releases 2008 Fourth-Quarter Rankings

Womens Flat Track Derby AssociationThe Women's Flat Track Derby Association today released its latest quarterly rankings (see below).  In a departure from the organization's previous two years of ranking all teams in the nation against each other, the 2008 fourth-quarter rankings are broken out by WFTDA region, with no overall national ordering.

Rankings are still determined by vote of member leagues, though member leagues now only vote to rank leagues within their own region.  According to previous statements, WFTDA uses the voting method so they can provide the most representative rankings possible within the constraints of the limited intercity schedules currently possible between these self-funded, all-volunteer organizations.

WFTDA does not rank leagues that have not kept up with all of their membership requirements, and notably, this quarter sees a higher-than-usual number of leagues that are thus ineligible for public rankings. As notably, many of them are leagues that might have been expected to rank at or near the top of their respective regions.

Three teams that went to the 2008 Nationals -- Carolina, Bay Area and Duke City -- are left out of the rankings, along with six more teams that qualified for the 2008 regional tournaments (Dallas, Detroit, Kansas City, Providence, Rose City and Tucson.)

In all, 16 leagues are ineligible for rankings, and added to the 12 newest leagues that have not yet played their required 2 sanctioned WFTDA bouts to qualify for rankings, 28 of WFTDA's 68 leagues are not represented in this ranking quarter.

Current Rankings (provided by WFTDA - original at www.wftda.com/rankings)

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Bureaucracy strikes again!!!!

Where's the transparency Our Fearless Leader promised us?

The Original GGRDonald
thinks someone should be Blagoed

I am...

"ineligible" to comment despite having the most awesome National Tournament in my league's city in '08.

RCR..4LMF!!!

they are aware

A volunteer organization cannot run without the participation of its members. Leagues have voted on those membership requirements, so leagues are not being left off the rankings arbitrarily. I really think that shouldn't have been the focus of this post, and your transparency lies in the fact that the inactive teams ARE posted, and not left off the ranking sheet entirely.

Holly Gohardly
Charm City Roller Girls

To your point, Holly....

Holly Gohardly wrote:

A volunteer organization cannot run without the participation of its members. Leagues have voted on those membership requirements, so leagues are not being left off the rankings arbitrarily. I really think that shouldn't have been the focus of this post, and your transparency lies in the fact that the inactive teams ARE posted, and not left off the ranking sheet entirely.

Holly Gohardly
Charm City Roller Girls

I SLIGHTLY understand that. If the reason is they didn't pay their dues, that is a perfectly acceptable reason(as you do need $$$$ to keep the organization going). If they don't participate in two interleague bouts, that's a prefectly acceptable reason as well. If it's paperwork red tape, OTOH, I think that's pretty petty.

The Original GGRDonald
I hate bureaucracy.

It's not "paperwork red

It's not "paperwork red tape". Part of being a WFTDA member is actually contributing to doing the work of running the organization, by having several members of the league participate in committees and take on tasks that need to be done. Much like how you need $$$$ to keep the organization going, you also need people doing their jobs!

Rev Al Mighty The Al Mighty

Rev Al Mighty

The Al Mighty Truth:

Relax..January rankings are often skewed due to the non participation of many top teams so early in the year,,,Skate well, play deby, win...& you will be ranked.

So does this mean we'll

So does this mean we'll continue to see regional rankings every quarter, and the results of the National Championship will count as the national rankings for the year?

Stegoscorus
Windy City Rollers

Sort of

Yes, WFTDA will be releasing regional rankings every quarter from now on. The results of 2008 Nationals will serve as the closest thing we have to national rankings, but technically speaking, official comprehensive national rankings are a thing of the past as of this quarter.

JFM

Is it just me?

Are there some teams not posted anywhere on this? What happened to Grand Rapids and Gem City? They are WFTDA right?

Hmm, good eye, didn't notice that

Grand Raggidy and Gem City are definitely still in the WFTDA; I'm guessing they're also ineligible and leaving them off the list altogether was an oversight. Just a guess, though.

JFM

GCR and GRRG added to ineligibles

So it looks like it was in fact just a temporary oversight.

JFM

Regional rankings, ineligibles & filing windows

On the regional rankings, I think this going to take a little time to get used to. Although it would be nice bragging rights to say that your league is "number 1 in the nation" (or number X), I guess now the battle cry is.. "prove it at the Nationals."

WFTDA is growing like crazy. Several leagues have been recently added to my coverage region (West) and I know of others that are waiting in the wings. In one of my businesses that is non-derbyish, a "filing window" process is used for applications. A window of time is announced and only during that time applications will be accepted. This will allow those applications to be worked on. Perhaps WFTDA should consider something like that too in light of this recently announced application freeze. Now if only OSDA can grow just a little bit.

Myself, it would be interesting to get a blanket statement from WFTDA on the ineligibles. There is a much higher than normal number of ineligibles to the point where the three WFTDA members in my primary coverage area are on the list. I know in 3Q when I had only one league on this list, they had told me that the reason was because they did not currently have a WFTDA league rep. I have my feelers out this time with my three leagues but it would be nice to hear an explanation from the top on this one.

with derby love...
Michi-chan
Michi-chan's REAL Derby
The Arizona Derby Report
http://www.michichan.com
THIS IS OUR STATE.. THIS IS OUR DERBY!

=m

Inactives

Typically, Q4 returns the highest number of inactives due to leagues not completing requirements such as inactive reps, paperwork, dues, etc. It is not petty. It is WFTDA setting a standard that all leagues must meet. Paperwork is important for us because it keeps us aware of our constinuency (membership) so that we can more effectively serve them. Additionally this year we have leagues that are inactive for not voting (a requirement that was established at WFTDA's Annual Conference). Voting is so important to the viability of our organization. It allows members to have a voice in the development of WFTDA as well as providing WFTDA with the ability to best represent its members. Honestly, I cannot understand why leagues would not vote. Why wouldn't you want your voice heard? I think 75% vote participation is more than fair.

As Holly said so clearly, WFTDA relies on its members to survive and advance our organization. If leagues are not willing to meet the very simple membership requirements why should they be rewarded? Why should some leagues be responsible for more work than the others? All leagues voted and approved of the membership requirements, including the vote requirment, so why shouldn't they be held accountable to them? If this organization is going to thrive and advance, we all need to pull our weight.

WFTDA's Thoughts.

Regardless of why a league is inactive, if they are not fulfilling their membership requirements, they are not eligible for inclusion in the rankings for those quarters. Being ranked is a member benefit of being in the WFTDA and if the league is not fully participating, they are not eligible for this particular member benefit.

Grace Killy

Games Committee Co-Chair, WFTDA
Brewcity Bruisers
Milwaukee Rollergirls

Yes But...

I respect the amount of work and dedication that it takes to keep wftda going, and I understand the need to penalize leagues who aren't pulling their weight. However, ranking status is an awfully public benefit to take away. Excluding leagues from rankings for administrative reasons seems to be emphasizing that some WFTDA members (a lot, in fact) are not conducting their business in a professional way.

I think that's the point.

The Amish call it "Meidung", also known as shunning, and it's a very effective deterrent against anti-social behavior. WFTDA is a collective effort and the minimum requirements are the baseline for continued existence in the collective. Leagues, regardless of their core intent, can't flout that without penalty. The rampant speculation about why nationally-known leagues aren't getting ranked is a form of natural deterrent.

The response to the shame of not being ranked is not to bemoan the penalty, the response should be to correct the behavior that lead to the penalty in the first place. A kind of "keep your noses clean" approach to doing the right thing.

- bjmacke (a.k.a. Apron)
(and, yeah, I fully expect a smackdown from Prof. Murder)

Fully Expect a Smackdown?

I hope that's not the rep I carry. Yow.

We sociologists refer to "sanctions," which is essentially the same thing as elementary psychology's learning through positive reinforcement.

Have a gold star, you asked a good question in class today; you're employee of the month, and everybody who reads the Verizon employee newsletter will know it; I can't believe you're wearing that, so I'm going to bring it up incessantly while we're out this evening; you're doing what to yourself? I'm not talking to you until you get some help.

You can conform to sanctions (to continue to behave in ways that get you positive, and cease those that get negative), but there are other options. You can conform (or fail to) while secretly harboring resentment/defiance towards the sanction providing organization. Citizens obey police, for instance, but do so at the same time that they accuse them of discrimination, profiling, abuse of powers, and other procedural/discretionary issues.

Now, what this has to do with roller derby anymore is beyond me. This kind of sanctioning (not to be confused with bout sanctioning, ha) might work. A sort of "oh, crapola, the world will not know of our greatness since we aren't ranked. DOT THOSE I'S AND CROSS THOSE T'S STAT!" might result.

But sanctions come from elsewhere; if a myriad of posts on DNN say "hey, where's Sheboygan in the rankings!?!? They placed at the tournament!" then the league members who read this may feel compelled to react differently. "Hey, we're awesome and belong here, and people know this is stupid that we aren't."

But, unless there are more suitable alternatives to coaxing leagues to always follow WFTDA policies, then the rankings will be what they always have been: incomplete at the time of release due to inactive leagues, and once the inactivity has been resolved, then they are placed in the rankings.

(not much of a smackdown, more of a longwinded followup to your succinct and useful post; sorry to disappoint.)

Not fair to the worker bees

Why would it be fair to give leagues a pass and let them be ranked if they did not keep up their end of their requirements? Is that fair to the leagues who did? If it were ok to not do the minimum, and still get the benefit of rankings, more leagues may slack off and then where would we be? Probably back to 2006.

Not saying they shouldn't be penalized

I totally get that there has to be a penalty, I just wish it wasn't so public. Presumably the rankings are out there in part to advertise and promote wftda (and all of derby by association) so having the naughty list included just looks bad.

Where it gets a bit problematic...

Half of the leagues participating participating in the Four Corners Feud are currently inactive. One would assume that the seeding was going to be done by their respective positions in the West region's ranks.

-Barely even speaking for myself...
*~[
Grand Poobah
Sin City Stat Pack
Fabulous Sin City Rollergirls

WFTDA has provided the best

WFTDA has provided the best opportunity to grow this great sport and really they dont ask all that much from participating leagues. All member leagues had to "jump thru hoops" to obtain the privilege of becoming a member league in the first place. Why did they do so? Why...to enjoy the benefits of being a WFTDA league. I have criticised WFTDA from time to time but they have to do something that stings a bit to get cooperation from leagues that are slacking. Now if we could just get a real TV deal. You know...one thats on a real network.

real network

Biker_Dave wrote:

WFTDA has provided the best opportunity to grow this great sport and really they dont ask all that much from participating leagues. All member leagues had to "jump thru hoops" to obtain the privilege of becoming a member league in the first place. Why did they do so? Why...to enjoy the benefits of being a WFTDA league. I have criticised WFTDA from time to time but they have to do something that stings a bit to get cooperation from leagues that are slacking. Now if we could just get a real TV deal. You know...one thats on a real network.

Our local cable network is adding Mav TV

Holly Gohardly
Charm City Roller Girls

What is real?

There is already a network that provides some pretty good derby coverage, including live reporting and live video when possible. It's called Derby News Network. Check to see if it is available in your area. I suspect that you will be pleased with the result.

Slack Kerowhack
mid Atlantic derby news
twitter.com/MADNews

"The medium is the message" -Marshall McLuhan

"real"

Slack Kerowhack wrote:

There is already a network that provides some pretty good derby coverage, including live reporting and live video when possible. It's called Derby News Network. Check to see if it is available in your area. I suspect that you will be pleased with the result.

Slack Kerowhack
mid Atlantic derby news
twitter.com/MADNews

"The medium is the message" -Marshall McLuhan

Quoting Biker Dave for my previous post: "Now if we could just get a real TV deal. You know...one thats on a real network", thus the reference.
What exactly is "is" anyhow.
Holly Gohardly
Charm City Roller Girls

I have an idea........

Holly Gohardly wrote:

Quoting Biker Dave for my previous post: "Now if we could just get a real TV deal. You know...one thats on a real network", thus the reference.
What exactly is "is" anyhow.
Holly Gohardly
Charm City Roller Girls

Why don't we ask Slick Willie what the definition of is is? I mean, Clinton isn't doing anything right now, right?

The Original DSPN
ESPN-Real Network. Mav TV-not so much.

Internet Arguments

theoriginaldonald wrote:

Clinton isn't doing anything right now, right?

I highly doubt Clinton would stop doing any thing so long as he (and it) has a heartbeat.

- bjmacke (a.k.a. Apron)

FYI

I've said it more than once publicly, I'll say it again, and again. I met with the Head of Programming at ESPN, both in person at a conference and in phone meetings afterwards. She's not interested. Why? Because they still can't even get enough major corporate dollars on board to fund their "mainstream", high - viewer number womens sports like Fast Pitch Softball, Soccer and Volleyball.

Next, I'd like to see the tv deal everyone who criticizes Mav has worked out for WFTDA? Anyone? No? Oh. Well, we managed to finagle over $500,000.00 of HD tv production per tournament at a time that what most cable networks were offering us was "you pay for the production and we'll air it sometimes, maybe late at night."

So, all you armchair tv producers out there, bring WFTDA that awesome deal "they" haven't scored yet. I'm quite sure you're as capable as the committee that's been working on it for the last 3 years... Mercy Less, former Marketing/PR Chair, closer of the tv deal you love to hate.

To Market and To Administer

I see the dicotomy of this quarterly-recurring argument coming down on two sides, basically, both with equally valid points, in my personal opinion:

1. The WFTDA cannot operate effectively without the participation of all members. All members have to keep up with their duties or WFTDA will falter. There has to be a way to "motivate" the less motivated, and being listed as ineligible for three months looks bad. You are held accountable in public. It’s a useful and necessary deterrent.

2. Rankings are a public milieu as much for the benefit of fans and the general public (marketing) as it is for the members (administration). It looks bad to that public for the WFTDA to air it's “administrative” issues so publicly. Also, the rankings are continually less than accurate or are incomplete making tournament seeding and dealing with a suspicious media problematic to say the least. It erroneously mixes the administration of the organization with the legitimacy of the sport. It’s bad for the sport in regards to marketing the sport to the general public and the media.

I don’t know of another sports organization that specifically utilizes their rankings as a sanctioning tool. Since rankings are a public issue to some extent—and since there absolutely has to be an effective way of keeping the WFTDA running smoothly as it continues to grow as the most important sanctioning body for the sport—in my opinion as a fan, this IS a worthwhile dialogue and should be addressed publicly.

Does anyone know if the WFTDA tried to impose different kinds of sanctions in the past that were less effective than the current rankings sanction?

Some alternatives I've heard floated in conversations at tourneys and such range from monetary fines to withholding bout sanctions for inactive leagues to straight up dismissal from the WFTDA for habitual inactivity. There are even benefits to escalating sanctions like these: start with monetary fine, escalate all the way up to dismissal.

In any event, some folks get understandably frustrated and weary because this discussion comes up every time the rankings come out every three months; and others feel understandably put off because they feel it’s a problem that is not being addressed.

The rankings are weird. While they are certainly the “property” or at least the jurisdiction of the WFTDA, they also belong to the fans and the media, because they are posted in a public forum.

WTFDA could just "asterisk"

WTFDA could just "asterisk" the offending teams and include them in the rankings where they WOULD be had they not made themselves ineligible by slacking. Would this be enuff to deter leagues from slacking? Perhaps WFTDA could create a "Slacker League" rankings that would rank all the leagues that have slacked entirely too much to be included in the actual non-slacking leagues rankings. I may not be entirely serious...as I myself have slacked entirely too much and to the best of my knowledge have not been included in any meaningful rankings. I myself have suffered the pain of being "asterisked" and that shit hurts. Ask Barry Bonds dude.

WFTDA rankings drinking game

Blogger/skater complains about inactive leagues not being ranked: One sip

Blogger or skater complainer offers inaccurate explanation of reasons for inactive status, due to WFTDA bylaws not being on the website: One drink

Skater from inactive league explains why they're inactive: Two drinks

Skater from inactive league reads the gripes and doesn't explain their status, but throws in kudos or talks about other things: One drink

"Here's how it should be done" post: One drink

Someone wonders why the rankings aren't done by win-loss records: One drink

Someone wonders why the rankings aren't done by computer: One drink
FTS.com gets mentioned in response: One drink
Someone complains that WFTDA's rankings are wrong because they're different from the ones on Flat Track Stats: Two drinks

Fan of non-WFTDA league complains about their not being ranked: One drink

Skater from non-WFTDA league complains about their not being ranked: Two drinks

Same skater from non-WFTDA league has it gently explained that skating by WFTDA rules != membership: One drink

Same skater says she's pretty sure they're "almost WFTDA." A year later the East Jesus Roller Broadz still aren't members: Three drinks, make out with your derby wife.

-Barely even speaking for myself...
*~[
Grand Poobah
Sin City Stat Pack
Fabulous Sin City Rollergirls

Forgot one.

Fan or skater complains that league got screwed in latest rankings: Two drinks

Needs a tweak

Some super-fan is always going to gripe about the rankings. Maybe make that one drink.

Two drinks if in the process he puts down another league while having the initials of the hometown league he's not actually a part of in his user name. Suck on an ice cube to simulate the pain in the fillings this gives "his league." You can remove the ice cube and have another if a member of "his league" makes a conciliatory post regarding the other team moving up in the rankings while trying not to make their season ticket holder look too stupid.

Maybe two drinks if a skater/coach/announcer who's pissed about her league's rank makes vague references to "some other leagues" even though it's fairly obvious who she means.

Someone uses the word "popular" or "popularity contest:" One drink

-Barely even speaking for myself...
*~[
Grand Poobah
Sin City Stat Pack
Fabulous Sin City Rollergirls

Barely Mocking for Myself

Blogger from an established WFTDA league rolls eyes and adopts "holier than thou" attitude regarding all debates deemed "so yesterday," effectively distracting from and cutting off all discussion and ridiculing legitimate concerns from fans and members of leagues deemed "not quite as important because they are from East Jesus," thereby propogating the view that the WFTDA is elitist: One Last Drink for the Road.

WHOOSH!

quad.almighty wrote:

Blogger from an established WFTDA league rolls eyes and adopts "holier than thou" attitude regarding all debates deemed "so yesterday," effectively distracting from and cutting off all discussion and ridiculing legitimate concerns from fans and members of leagues deemed "not quite as important because they are from East Jesus,"

The aim with that comment was to make up a funny league name that would roughly correspond to a newish league anywhere out there. It was about the REGULAR replies to blog postings from skaters/fans who wonder why their non-WFTDA league isn't ranked. It happens almost every time the rankings get posted somewhere. At times I've been tempted to set up a keyboard macro that explains it to people.

I'm not trying to put these people down. Skaters new to derby, who haven't done interleague bouts yet, or are fairly isolated geographically generally can take a while to see the big picture.

The things I listed are there because I used to see them about once per quarter. The inactive league ones you tend to see once per year. Because the January rankings tend to cause a big stir due to the inactives, more attention gets drawn to the blog by all the comments, and the OTHER typical responses sometimes snowball as well.

-Barely even speaking for myself...
*~[
Grand Poobah
Sin City Stat Pack
Fabulous Sin City Rollergirls

Respect for East Jesus

Poobah wrote:

The aim with that comment was to make up a funny league name that would roughly correspond to a newish league anywhere out there. It was about the REGULAR replies to blog postings from skaters/fans who wonder why their non-WFTDA league isn't ranked. It happens almost every time the rankings get posted somewhere. At times I've been tempted to set up a keyboard macro that explains it to people.

I'm not trying to put these people down. Skaters new to derby, who haven't done interleague bouts yet, or are fairly isolated geographically generally can take a while to see the big picture.

Okay, Poobah, I'm sure your intention was not to put these people down. You're a good and conscientious joe usually and I like your posts usually.

However, referring to newer leagues as the "East Jesus Roller Broadz" and making fun of their lack of knowledge about something as relatively complex as the WFTDA rankings or membership process--while funny to you and other jaded derby veterans--is inappropriate for public dissemination, because it DOES offend those newer more "geographically isolated" leagues.

Those new leauges have an unnecessarily difficult task gettng simple questions answered because jaded derby veterans are always making fun or shouting them down for the purpose of a silly inside joke. The MUCH bigger problem is that THAT is exactly the behavior that perpetuates the extremely damaging (and untrue) notion that the WFTDA is an elitist organization.

If you're going to post that stuff anyway, then you might consider not tagging the "Sin City Rollergirls" brand at the end of your signature. I guarantee the offended parties are not saying, "Poobah mocked me," they are saying, "the Sin City Rollergirls mocked me." As the Sin City Rollergirls are one of the founding members of the WFTDA and have enthusiastically reached out to help a ton of WFTDA and WFTDA-aspiring leagues get off the ground, that seems like a wholely unfair rap for them to take over a snide offhand joke.

You are speaking for more than yourself regardless of your intentions or your tagline. You speak for any affiliation to which you attach yourself.

Show your league and the WFTDA a little more respect by being an ambassador instead of a gatekeeper. You're a classier guy than that.

*And... speaking of geographically isolated, dude, you guys are in the middle of a DESERT! ;)

I may be alone in this...

...but I think you're reading way too much into Poobah's comment and missing his point.

all due respect

DayGlo Divine wrote:

...but I think you're reading way too much into Poobah's comment and missing his point.

Much respect to you DayGlo, but I'm not. It is offensive. People need to start being more careful if they're going to represent.

You are not alone...

in this.
Everyone brings their own experiences to dialogue though. Words always have meanings that are different at their point of origin than at various destinations. One just has to hope that people are willing to recognize this and give the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, some surprisingly harsh responses can lead many of us to become MUCH more hesitant to join the dialogue.

Slack Kerowhack
mid Atlantic derby news
twitter.com/MADNews

"You play with words, you play with love
You can twist it around, baby that ain't enough"
-Hall & Oates

Such an eloquent man...

You've been hanging out at the East Jesus Zen Center, haven't you?

(By the way, apparently East Jesus is a common town name; my Google research tells me there's one in Virginia, Texas, New York, Kansas, Montana, Illinois, Arkansas, and even China!)

All I'm sayin'...

For the sake of the three of us actually still following this thread (sort of a little Poobah Drinking Game Revision Committee) I will say this: Sometimes we post things that are meant to be light-hearted and funny. Sometimes those things are not taken that way. Often times those are the very things that "can lead many of us to become MUCH more hesitant to join the dialogue".

All I'm sayin' is there is a large derby constituency that feels unfairly excluded from these discussions because they feel continuously ridiculed for asking rookie questions, so how about we exercise a little more restraint when blogging publicly, so that NO ONE has to feel hesitant about joining ANY dialogue.

More Derby = More Goodness in the World.

*Also, I think the debate about sanctioning the rankings comes up every three months not because someone's got their pants all bunched up in the wrong places about being sanctioned, but because it's a PR problem for the sport. For the record, the team with which I am affiliated is and has been continually ranked, so that's not where I'm coming from. :)

**Also, I think we should form a coed East Jesus challenge team at RollerCon this year. Any takers? Poobah pivots. DayGlo jams.

OOF!!!!!

Poobah wrote:
quad.almighty wrote:

Blogger from an established WFTDA league rolls eyes and adopts "holier than thou" attitude regarding all debates deemed "so yesterday," effectively distracting from and cutting off all discussion and ridiculing legitimate concerns from fans and members of leagues deemed "not quite as important because they are from East Jesus,"

The aim with that comment was to make up a funny league name that would roughly correspond to a newish league anywhere out there. It was about the REGULAR replies to blog postings from skaters/fans who wonder why their non-WFTDA league isn't ranked.

-Barely even speaking for myself...
*~[
Grand Poobah
Sin City Stat Pack
Fabulous Sin City Rollergirls

Why isn't a non-WFTDA league ranked? Because they aren't affliated with WFTDA!(DUH!)

Why isn't Providence(for example) ranked? that's none of our business.

The Original GGRDonald
(this post was edited for broadcast)

blitzed

WFTDA rep explains that we are volunteers. Chug a lug.

Holly Gohardly
Charm City Roller Girls

Want. Now.

I totally want an "East Jesus Roller Broadz" T-shirt!!!!

Here's what's needed...

Eli Wallop wrote:

I totally want an "East Jesus Roller Broadz" T-shirt!!!!

To make one of those, we'd need a completely original league logo, incorporating a skull, a roller skate, a nautical star, brass knuckles, wings, and a devil that looks like Betty Page with a black eye. They were going to include the outline of their county in the logo, but were concerned they might get sued by established leagues in one of the rectangular states or in other states that have all rectangular counties.

-Barely even speaking for myself...
*~[
Grand Poobah
Stats Geek
Roc City Roller Derby

What about West Jesus???

As official spokesperson for the West Jesus Immaculate Contraptions I want to complain. Why have the East Jesus Roller Broadz been mentioned more than 10 times in this forum without a single reference to our league which has been in existence far longer than those trollops from East Jesus? Everyone knows they're just trailer trash!

We have no grudge against them even though they blew us out 666 to 6 last Easter. The final score would have been much different if we had brought all our team. We're just looking for some respect is all.

Bad, Bad, Poobah. For your transgressions I sentence thee to attend counseling at the Double Down. The trained professionals behind the bar will help you atone for your sins. Drink until your money runs out. Then report back on all the debauchery to us here on the forum.

"I hate to advocate Drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S. Thompson

East vs. West (Jesus)

We challenge thee! Bring your false prophets and your funny derby lingo! East Jesus shall prevail and smite your blasphemous assphemous!

Challenge Accepted

And remember this, heathens: Call on God but row away from the rocks.