PORTLAND, OR -- The standard-bearers in Pacific Northwest derby battle it out in a special matchup on Saturday, as #3 Rat City comes down from Seattle for a rare all-star appearance against Portland's #10 Rose City.
It's a general derby truism that all-star teams improve the more interleague experience they get as a unit -- and tend to suffer when they don't get much -- but Rat City has been a decided exception to that rule. Previous to their recent 93-88 victory over #6 Bay Area (who were ranked #10 at the time of the bout), the Rat City all-stars had never once played a bout outside of a tournament.
They've managed to do quite well for themselves regardless, winning the 2007 Western Regionals and coming up a mere 4 points short of defeating Kansas City in one of derby's true classics, the heart-stopping championship bout of the 2007 Nationals. While the all-star team doesn't play very often as a unit, their constituent parts still get plenty of interleague experience, as Rat City often sends out their four local teams to do battle with all-star squads.
Rose City has a somewhat misleading 3-3 record since last year's Nationals -- all three losses were fine showings against some of the toughest competition in derby, including 129-86 to #2 Gotham (#5 at the time of their bout), 111-74 to #6 Bay Area (#10 at the time of their bout) and 104-97 to #8 Philly.
Their wins, on the other hand, have been utterly dominating -- 89 points over #11 Charm City (ranked #22 at the time of that bout, Charm responded well to rise 10 spots), 71 points over #18 Minnesota (who dropped down from #12 after that bout), and 110 points over Houston (who have held steady at #24 since that contest.)
While this bout is not WFTDA sanctioned and therefore technically does not count towards WFTDA rankings, this September's bouts are much more about preparing for October's regional tournaments -- both teams will likely use this to tune their final lineups, as they're taking advantage of the non-sanction to field larger rosters than they'd be allowed in a regulation game.
UPDATE: The roster information DNN received on this bout turned out to be inaccurate -- the bout was 15 players for Rose City against 12 for Rat City, *not* 20 on 20. Rosters in the preview have been updated to reflect that.
From the originally submitted rosters, Rat City did not have Ann R. Kissed, Blonde an' Bitchin, Deadly Aim, Femme Fatale, Morning Gory, Valtron, Wile E. Peyote, Miss Fortune, or Katarina Whip. They did bring Drew Blood and X-Khan, neither of whom were on the originally submitted roster.
On the Rose City side, there were no additions, but some subtractions -- RCR did not have Angry Wrench, Dora Doom, November Pain or Scratcher in the Eye.
Sincere apologies for the confusion.
$50 Axl Blows // 2U Blood Clottia // 33 Bust'her Spines // 18 Cadillac // 2x4 D. Konstructor // 10-16 Domesticated Violence // sweet16 FireCrotch // str8edge Goodie Two Skates // 7/8 Gwennich Mean Time // 82 Hurricane Skatrina // 1213 Madame Bumpsalot // 0 Megahurtz // 357 Rhea DeRange // 9 Sol Train // barely 21 Vominatix
17oz Billie Boilermaker // 12gauge Carmen Getsome // 8 D-Bomb // 76 Juliet Bravo // TK0 Punchin' Judy // 55 Skate Trooper // 60 Summer Assault // 16 Burnett Down // 10 Edie Brickwall // 46 Ninjit Su // 7pints Drew Blood // 18&life X-Khan
...ooo
Good Luck to both teams! I wish I was in the northwest to see this showdown.
Holly Gohardly
Charm City Roller Girls
Ya want a prediction on this
Ya want a prediction on this bout don'cha? Well...ummm...errrr...this is another tuff bout (of 3) thats happening this weekend. Rose City has such a talented and amazing team. I would say that they have achieved near-elite status. However, all things considered there is just no way I can bet against Rat City. There is no way that I can bet against Rat City against any West Coast opponent other than KC. Hell yes there are a handfull of teams that can really bring it aginst RC and keep the bout extremely close: Rocky Mtn, B.A.D., TX to name a few. But until Rat City has a real stumble I am not betting against them. They are still elite, fast, experienced and they've been in close, brutal bouts plenty of times. I really do like what Rose City has accomplished though and losing to the Goths, Philly and those badass skaters of the B.A.D. is nothing to be embarrased about thats for sure. And so...Rat City wins again.
Disagree
I disagree with the mention that RMRG could hang with Rat City. BAD yes, Texas yes, but not RMRG. RMRG has not proven themselves to be at that level of derby. Rat City is one of the elite teams in this sport and RMRG has only been able to knock off mid-level teams. Tonight will be another indicator of how good RMRG really is, but until they show that ability to step up to a big time team, I don't think you can put them in that class right now. That's all. It's no disrespect to RMRG either; only that they are unproven at that level of derby as most leagues are.
Angus Con
Denver Roller Dolls
Angus...Rocky Mtn DID defeat
Angus...Rocky Mtn DID defeat Boston and Pikes Peak recently. In my book those two victories place them in the "near-elite" status. BOS and PPDD are no slouches, just ask any team that has played them. I wouldnt call BOS a "mid-level" team at any rate. I still say that Rocky Mtn could hang w/ Rat City...for a while anyway. RC would come out on top by the end of the bout of course. Since you are a Denver supporter maybe there's a little anti-Rocky bias? Just sayin'. Perhaps we will see if RM can prove themselves against top-flight competition soon. BTW-are Rocky Mtn gonna play Denver next season?? It's a no-brainer that they should bout it out!
now, now
I don't see any cause to go digging for bias, Dave. Angus's post was respectful and, it seemed to me, well-reasoned.
For some time, a plateau has separated the pinnacle of derby teams from all the rest. Two years ago, Texas was alone on that plateau. Tucson joined them there first, though it seems they've since slipped back off. Rat City has definitely set up shop up top, as have Kansas City and Gotham, with Carolina and Bay Area making persuasive arguments that they belong there too.
Rocky Mountain's trajectory has been really interesting to me. They were dead last, 20th out of 20 at Dust Devil 2006. Unlike the Kansas Citys and Windy Citys and Gothams and Detroits of the world, they haven't had a sudden moment of profound success to draw attention to them. However, they've played consistently and competitively, working their way up the rankings one or two slots at a time, and now are on the cusp of the top ten even as WFTDA has doubled in membership.
I am really interested to see how Rocky Mountain performs tonight against Windy City, and also to watch them at regionals. I think they're a team that could move to the plateau at any time, and I'd love to see it happen! Until it does, though, they're a competitive team at the foot of the ridge.
No bias
I like the RMRG girls just fine and it's nothing personal towards them. Just stating that as our girls have found out this year, you have to play the big dogs to have any hope of becoming one of them. And while RMRG is a good team, they haven't shown themselves to be at the level of a Rat City, an elite team. I saw both their Gotham and Windy City bouts and they aren't in Rat City's company right now. Few are. Doesn't mean they suck or are even average; just that they aren't ready for the big dogs yet, which is true of most derby leagues still (mine included).
As far as RMRG and DRD bouting, it's a possibility at regionals and we will both be in a double elimination tournament next season too. It's not as far away as it used to be; that's for sure.
I would love to see a bout
I would love to see a bout between DEN and Rocky Mtn! Losing to WCR is not shocking, but I would have thought that the final score would have been a little tighter. Still...I believe that RM are on their way and by this time next year I wouldnt be surprised at all to see them crack the top 10. Defeating BOS and PPDD is definately something to hang their helmet on and they have much to be proud of. And I would agree that as of right now RM arent in Rat-c's "league".
Say what now!?
I would like you to clarify a little bit. Are you saying that RMRG could hang with BAD and Texas or BAD and Texas could hang with Rat City?
Don't know
if you were talking about me, but if so, I'm saying BAD and Texas can hang with Rat City. I don't believe RMRG could hang with BAD or Texas right now.
I would like you to clarify a little bit. Are you saying that RMRG could hang with BAD and Texas or BAD and Texas could hang with Rat City?
I disagree with Angus Con
Angus Con, I heard you are not only a supporter, but the coach of the Denver Roller Dolls. Maybe we should address the fact that there is no way in hell that DRD should even be at regionals because they are in NO WAY better than some of the teams that didn't make it (Sacred, Atlanta, AZRD, to name a few). I agree with Biker_Dave who is obviously unbiased.
Ducky: We encourage spirited debate here
Discussion about the relative merits & skill levels of teams is totally welcome. That being said, please be kind enough to observe the site code of conduct :)
JFM
Haha
Angus Con, I heard you are not only a supporter, but the coach of the Denver Roller Dolls. Maybe we should address the fact that there is no way in hell that DRD should even be at regionals because they are in NO WAY better than some of the teams that didn't make it (Sacred, Atlanta, AZRD, to name a few). I agree with Biker_Dave who is obviously unbiased.
Yeah, I'm a coach. BFD. I'm not hiding it.
Don't like us being at regionals? Talk to the voters because that's not my concern. We go where we're told and we aren't afraid to play anyone.
Um...
Not to be Captain Obvious here, but Atlanta's in a different region from Denver.
Ouch.
Dear "rubber_ducky",
I hope that our performance at Regionals proved to you that we belonged there. We worked hard for our spot and I am proud of how far we came during our first year in WFTDA.
Jersey Trouble
Denver Roller Dolls - Mile High Club
Betting man
So, uhm care for a friendly wager?
Er...
oops, double posted.
Gambling and roller derby???
I am not a big gambler myself (lost 60 bucks at a native reservation casino when I was 20, and decided there were better ways to throw away money, like ALCOHOL!), but I still occasionally get the urge to wager on an upcoming derby bout. Has WFTDA taken a formal stance on this matter? (i.e. is gambling among derby folks deemed acceptable, by and large?)
Just curious. No flack to Sephra BTW. (Anyway, it's a little late to wager on this bout. Congrats to Rose City for a landslide victory last weekend!)
Bat Wing
Ref - CoMo Derby Dames, Columbia, MO.
Jammer - Midwest Men's Roller Derby (Midwest Monsters), regional club
http://www.myspace.com/refbatwing
To Quote a Great Man: "Um, No."
I don't think a formal stance is needed.
Google "Tim Donaghy."
LOL
I don't think a formal stance is needed.
Google "Tim Donaghy."
Thanks, dude.
Bat Wing
Ref - CoMo Derby Dames, Columbia, MO.
Jammer - Midwest Men's Roller Derby (Midwest Monsters), regional club
http://www.myspace.com/refbatwing
Maybe it's just me, but...
It's a little surprising and more than a little alarming that this even needs to be said.
Hey, sorry, folks.
Like I said: I am NOT a gambler. Sephra brought it up (probably in jest, I think). I was just wondering, for the sake of discussion, if there had been a formal ruling on the matter. No wagers for me (unless you want to bet your ass, DayGlo -- LOL). I really didn't mean to sour the tone.
(Bear in mind: I am not a WFTDA member ref, and I don't have access to the inside dialogue, so most of my info about things like this just come from asking people on forums, or when I travel to other leagues and meet skaters/refs in person.)
Bat Wing
Ref - CoMo Derby Dames, Columbia, MO.
Jammer - Midwest Men's Roller Derby (Midwest Monsters), regional club
http://www.myspace.com/refbatwing
League affiliation is irrelevant.
There are times when different refs might be inclined to call things differently, and clarification is needed in order to establish a "right" way.
This is not one of those times.
Fair enough.
So, I am assuming that a common sense approach has been implicitly imparted on the premise of basic ethics. i.e. "Of course there's no gambling in derby, doofus!!" I honestly figured as much, but was wondering if it had come up at any point in time. That's all.
Maybe I need to buy a pointy helmet and sit in the corner for a while.
Bat Wing
Ref - CoMo Derby Dames, Columbia, MO.
Jammer - Midwest Men's Roller Derby (Midwest Monsters), regional club
http://www.myspace.com/refbatwing
Let me give you the Nevada perspective
I doubt you'd ever see legal sports betting on roller derby. Sports books take bets on sports that have results reported in the newspaper. Aside from some silly assumptions that what we're doing is fake, that'd be the biggest roadblock for now. Beyond that, there's a lack of local fanbase or interest in out of town teams, and well, intraleague bouts could create all kinds of appearance of propriety issues.
Note: Legal sports betting in Nevada actually works to keep sports honest (surprisingly enough). Reason being: When it's not being done by our corporations, it's being done in other cities by organized crime. If the line suddenly needs to make an unusual move due to too much betting on one side or the other, that can be a sign that the fix is in. Law enforcement and/or league officials WILL investigate once this kind of thing happens.
Do away with legal sports betting in Nevada, and newspapers would have to publish Donny Big Ears' line. They would then be aiding and abetting crime by publishing a line in the paper. There wouldn't be a semi-universal betting line, and well, there'd be all kinds of shifty sports happenings going on. Football could turn into harness racing.
The WFTDA championship SEEMS like it'd work, but it's a one or two day tournament. Last year nobody knew who would be facing whom in the final round until an hour or so beforehand. The best you could do would be the kinds of parlays they do for college basketball.
As someone who doesn't bet on sports (lack of interest in most sports, and I'm not much of a gambler myself), I would theorize our sport makes betting a bit tricky. How do you set a reasonably reliable points spread?
Note: The casino or sports book does not make money off your team losing. If they have done their job correctly setting the spread (or the odds, for sports like boxing), there's an even amount bet on either team. Their profit is the 10% (or whatever) that they skim off the top.
Given this fact, they actually make their money off the winners, instead of the losers. Explanation: If you place a casual bet with a friend and lose, you lose the full amount and he wins the same. If you place a bet with a sports book and lose, you lose the amount of the bet, and a winner you don't know gets somewhat less than the full amount.
-Barely even speaking for myself...
*~[
Grand Poobah
Sin City Stat Pack
Fabulous Sin City Rollergirls
I think the question wasn't
I think the question wasn't whether people in general could or will bet on the outcome of roller derby bouts, but whether it's ethical for people who are involved in roller derby in some official capacity to do the same, and more specifically, whether such ethics have been codified by WFTDA. Still...interesting train of thought.
Clarity
Ok I did not know my comment could generate such an informative internet banter. Just to clear the record about my comment, it was actually a silly joking poke at an earlier posting (see below).
*************************
Ya want a prediction on this
Submitted by Biker_Dave on September 5, 2008 - 12:13pm.
Ya want a prediction on this bout don'cha? Well...ummm...errrr...this is another tuff bout (of 3) thats happening this weekend. Rose City has such a talented and amazing team. I would say that they have achieved near-elite status. However, all things considered there is just no way I can bet against Rat City. There is no way that I can bet against Rat City against any West Coast opponent other than KC. Hell yes there are a handfull of teams that can really bring it aginst RC and keep the bout extremely close: Rocky Mtn, B.A.D., TX to name a few. But until Rat City has a real stumble I am not betting against them. They are still elite, fast, experienced and they've been in close, brutal bouts plenty of times. I really do like what Rose City has accomplished though and losing to the Goths, Philly and those badass skaters of the B.A.D. is nothing to be embarrased about thats for sure. And so...Rat City wins again.
Sephra
Aspiring Rinkside Roller Derby Reporter
The highlight of my weekend!!!
This should be a wicked bout, sanctioned or not. These are the two powerhouse leagues in the NW. I can't wait!
not sanctioned
Inquiring minds want to know - whence the wftda unsanctioned status?
Yeah,
I'm a bit surprised by the non-sanctionedness of this game, especially since it seems that most leagues ONLY do sanctioned games. Does anyone know the dealio?
TARA ARMOV #51
LA Derby Dolls
That Which Does Not Kill You Makes For A Good Story
unsanctioned
... as I understand it, so that the teams can skate rosters bigger than 14. Good opportunity to tune lineups for regionals.
I think both teams are looking at this with the idea that the next rankings period will be settled pretty much entirely by the results of the tournaments, so there's no compelling reason for this particular bout to "count" for that purpose.
Doesn't this ranking period
Doesn't this ranking period end before the tournaments begin?
nope.
Mid-October will be voting time, the way the quarters are currently landing. There would be merit to WFTDA lagging the cycle by a month so it happens after nationals, just as they wisely did last year.
Makes sense to me.
Makes sense to me.
WFTDA Sanctioned v. Not
The leagues are free to apply to WFTDA for sanction or not. The sanctioned games have much tighter restrictions on rosters, rules and reffing, which is why not every bout is sanctioned. Any non-sanctioned games between WFTDA teams is no different from a bout between home teams, two non-WFTDA league's, between league's non-chartered travel teams, or between a WFTDA and non-WFTD league but is simply not considered for WFTDA Ranking purposes, which (in my opinion anyway) during this quarter will be strongly influenced by the tournaments as opposed to individual games.
it looks like...
It looks like the two teams are playing their entire 20-skater roster against each other, which isn't allowed in a WFTDA sanctioned game (14 skaters max). They are certainly using this to warm their teams up for Regionals, possibly while making a little traveling money in the process!
A great idea.
Miss Moxxxie
B.A.D. Girls All-Stars
San Francisco, CA
and...
It's a fundraiser bout for both teams i.e. Regional$ and being held at the RCR practice facility which has limited seating but cheap parking and beer...with relatively short notice.
Who is...?
Who is that uber-foxy rat city jammer on the right in the flyer pic? I remember seeing her in the 2007 Nationals pics too.
(You folks may want to change out of your skates so you don't slip on my huge puddle of drool. Sorry.)
Bat Wing
Ref - CoMo Derby Dames, Columbia, MO.
Jammer - Midwest Men's Roller Derby (Midwest Monsters), regional club
http://www.myspace.com/refbatwing
Miss Fortune
Who is that uber-foxy rat city jammer on the right in the flyer pic? I remember seeing her in the 2007 Nationals pics too.
That's Miss Fortune. She's been sidelined with an injury for a while, though I did see her blocking in some Team Awesome shots from last week.
- bjmacke (a.k.a. Apron)
That's very 'Miss-Fortunate'.
(pun fully intended). Derby can hurt, yes. So she's on Team Awesome? I think that awesome Cincy jammer, Sadistic Sadie, is down with that set too. Awesome!
Bat Wing
Ref - CoMo Derby Dames, Columbia, MO.
Jammer - Midwest Men's Roller Derby (Midwest Monsters), regional club
http://www.myspace.com/refbatwing
Batwing can drool at Miss
Batwing can drool at Miss Fortune. I will drool at this match. Wish I could be there to see it but I guess I'll make up for it by watching the Derby Dolls this month.
p.s. Sadistic Sadie is beyond awesome.
Blood Clottia
Thats who's HOT!. Too bad she plays for the opposite team. Go RAT CITY!!
Oh I hope there is video of this since I have to work tonight. I would have been there to cheer on Punchin Judy. UgoGirl!
glorified scrimmage
This game has gotten a lot of press for what is essentially a scrimmage.
We're having a scrimmage tomorrow too, so we can get all 20 players some playing time, do you guys want updates as well?
Breaking News? Really?
Hoo Ha,
Of Team Douchebag
Sorry, don't agree
If a league sells tickets to the public to a bout, it's something more than just a scrimmage.
JFM
Scrimmage or not, it could be interesting
If a league sells tickets to the public to a bout, it's something more than just a scrimmage.
JFM
The NFL and College Football do it as do other sports and its still a scrimmage. That said, since ESPN and Fox sports wont be doing any daily regional updates...update away I say! Even news of scrimmages make it onto the Daily regional reports for many sports (usually team specific papers and websites). I dont think too many people would consider it a waste of space. Especially good for those who will not be able to attend and might even draw in a few people for the future.
Just a thought here
Glorified scrimmage or not, I choose that later because I was there and it was a bout, it's really a BIG PICTURE issue. Rose City and Rat City have some amazing fans (I know I count as one...) but pimping Derby to the masses is here in NW "PRE" Nationals and getting the Derby word out as the clock ticks closer to November is just good business. It's not just a good strategic plan for the Leagues, that could drag in more regular season fans in the wake of Nationals, it's good business for the sport. I think if ranked teams gather in a parking lot to hammer it out, tickets sold or not,it is news...especially if they have cheap beer.
How about we wait.
400 spectators were there. And one was Elwood Bruise who the score came from on Twitter. How about we wait for a recap? The score seems like a lot of experimental strategies may have been used. Also I don't count 20 people on the this article's rosters. I heard some Rat City girls were challenging for spots on the team to go to Westerns. But I wasn't there so I will wait. I just hope it was a successful fundraiser for those teams to travel.
agreed about the fundraising
it seems like this was a great way to make some last minute money for the leagues. I too hope it was successful.
From Rose City
This "scrimmage" was four years in the making, so it's a big deal to Rat City and Rose City. Our respective travel teams have never played each other, though Portland and Seattle's home teams have faced off several times. Anyway, the main goal was to raise money for Regionals travel expenses, which I'm sure we accomplished. But bragging rights are also a perk. :)
One thing I'm left wondering is why D-Bomb didn't play much (or at all?). I don't recall seeing her in a single jam. I'm interested to read Elwood's recap. At any rate, Wheels of Justice played an amazing game and they deserve major props even if this wasn't a sanctioned bout.
F-Bomb, Rose City Rollers
Sorry Rose City
No Blonde an Bitchin, Valtron, Wile E Peyote, AnnRKissed, Femme Fatale or Miss Fortune and D-Bomb barely gets her skates warm. Sorry Rose City, but you've still haven't played Rat City's travel team, you played the B-Team, great job though.
I'm not surprised that Rat City scored 63 points, but allowing 154, that's not a good showing for the Rat. For a score like that, that means that Rose City jammers were flying around the pack, untouched.
One has to wonder about the wisdom of letting such a public thumping occur. I can't see how that builds confidence in the second tier skaters that are needed to make a team go. You need bench players that are ready to ”tear steel with their bare hands” when the call for them to jam is made. One can argue that they now have something to prove, but this really goes against modern coaching philosophy.
Well Played
There's wisdom in having a number of your potential A-team players to play and lose to a really strong team. They learn valuable skating experience and will be better players in the event they make it on to the A-team. Ray City knew the bout wouldn't count for rankings and that, at its core, the bout was a fundraiser. I think they made the right decision, even if it means that the DNN commentator pool thinks it was a mistake.
- bjmacke (a.k.a. Apron)
Rat City / Rose City rosters updated
Looks like we received a early version of the rosters. Check the post for the final gametime rosters, courtesy of Izzy Pop.
JFM
I'm not the official answer
I'm not the official answer to the rosters, but I'm 99% sure that's who was on each bench. If there is anyone who can confirm the official roster, that'd be great.
I do remember explicitly that Rose City suited 15 and Rat City suited 12.
Rose City smells so sweet
What an amazing bout. Portland started off like a rocket and never stopped! Taking lead jammer at least 6 jams in a row Rose City showed them who's ready for nationals. This bout had the die hard Portland derby fans foaming at the mouth and wanting more. Man can November come quick enough.
Even if the Rat City vs Rose
Even if the Rat City vs Rose City bout was **ahem** a scrimmage I would think that personal pride would have inspired Rat-C to perform a little better than they apparently did. It looks to me that the rust is still showing a bit. I have been impressed with Rose City before this bout...but now?? Rose City is on their way up and any doubters need to look at the final score of this bout again. This is RAT CITY we're talking about here!! Un-freaking-believable night for those rowdy up 'n' coming Rose City girls!! Congrats to those Portland Homegirls!
Disappointed in Rat City's effort
Having seen the bout, I got the vibe that Rose City played with more intensity and focus than Rat City--Granted that while Rat City was missing a few of their prime all stars for this bout--Blonde an Bitchin, Valtron, Wile E Peyote, AnnRKissed, and Femme Fatale (D-Bomb skated in one or two jams then didn't play the rest of the night), some girls didn't bring enough of a work ethic to the sport court last night. Maybe this was a scrimmage that didn't count for anything ranking wise, but Rat City should have shown more, at least for the purpose of getting in shape for the Regionals and the Nationals.
Did Miss Fortune play? I
Did Miss Fortune play? I heard Drew Blood made a comeback in an all-star uniform. Is this true?
No Miss Fortune
in the bout last night. Drew played.
some roster revisions
The rosters were a bit different than above:
Rose City was missing scratcher in the eye, dora doom and november pain were all sitting this one out. I'd have to take a look back through the photos to see who, if anyone replaced them.
Rat City replaced Ann r kissed, blonde, deadly aim, femme fatale, morning gory, valtron, wile e, and fortune with drew blood and x-khan.
While Rose City's jammer corp was impressive, I'd say this was the Megahurtz blocking show. She sat at the back of the pack and caused all sorts of hell every time she was in.
Photos here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/type2b/sets/72157607171985635/
Axle Adams
a.k.a. Jules Doyle
Derby Photographer
True dat
"While Rose City's jammer corp was impressive, I'd say this was the Megahurtz blocking show. She sat at the back of the pack and caused all sorts of hell every time she was in."
Megahurtz is a terrific blocker.
Thanks Jules. Great photos
Thanks Jules. Great photos as always!!
Distressing to see this "B-Team" b.s. again
Look at the flyer at the top of this page. It says "Wheels of Justice" vs. "Seattle Allstars." Perhaps I am a gullible fan, but when I pay $25, that's what I expect to see.
The bout was advertised with the same wording on Rose City and Rat City sites:
http://www.ratcityrollergirls.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=21079
The bout wasn't advertised as a scrimmage, it was advertised as a bout, albeit at a small venue with proceeds going to league funds. The ads didn't say that Seattle was sending their "B-Team," it said that they were sending their "Allstars."
The ads didn't advise that the bout would be less competitive due to the fundraiser aspect.
Somebody either needs to quit making excuses or somebody needs to quit ripping derby fans off by advertising "Allstar" teams when "B-Teams" are the ones apparently showing up.
Truth in advertising, please. Or fewer excuses for losing teams. Thanks!
wowers...
I guess it can be a bit frustrating when you expect something else but do consider the fact that roller derby is chock full of volunteers and everyone has their own lives outside of derby. Also, certain skaters need to take care of themselves if they're banged up. I'd rather see Rat and Rose at full strength come Regionals and Nationals. I guess what I'm saying is sure you paid your top dollar and were expecting the top talent but these ladies are not professionals and each have their own reasons for not playing.
Just something to chew on. Also, for those who didn't make the trip, Elwood slapped up a recap of sorts which can help put things in perspective as many of the top notchers were out.
Elwood's Blog: http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=107162553&blogID=431336025&Mytoken=A1720204-5C63-4C40-982DE371BFAD7DFD64950667
A compliment
Most derby fans in most cities wouldn't even notice if a travel team from another city didn't bring their A-list! I think it's awesome that this fan not only noticed but was pissed off about it. Just my twisted way of looking at things.
Allstars
The ads didn't say that Seattle was sending their "B-Team," it said that they were sending their "Allstars."
It depends on what your definition of "Allstars" entails. Is it the WFTDA quarterly roster? Is it the roster of fourteen at the last sanctioned bout? The next one?
If you looked at Rat City's teams page, you'd see what they call their "All Star Travel Team". It's got twenty skaters, and states that it's a team of fourteen skaters with six alternates. So that's how THEY define their Allstar team. Small problem (not really their fault for this) is that the page hasn't updated since October 2007. Taking a look at the DNN recap for the BAD bout, there's a number of girls on THAT roster that aren't on the Travel Team page.
So, yeah, you probably saw a bout that had twelve of Rat City's All Star Travel Team. I don't think it's Rat City's fault that your interpretation of "Allstar" didn't match theirs.
- bjmacke (a.k.a. Apron)
"it all depends on what IS, IS"
I truly hate how blaming other factors lessens the value of what the WoJ did on Saturday. Frankly I would have preferred a closer bout just to take the argument away, because this debate "tactic" does a disservice to the kind of game Rose City skated. From the very FIRST WHISTLE!!!
For the Record
I didn't hear ANYONE from Rat City making excuses after the bout. The people I talked to only gave props to the WoJ. All the excuse making has been done by others.
BTW Getting to watch the skaters in attendance knock each other down for an hour was so worth the $25.
Yeah...and it wouldnt be
Yeah...and it wouldnt be like anyone from Rat-c to make excuses. Rat-c are a class squad and everyone, including them, knows that they'll come back with a vengeance. They are RAT CITY. Only problem is that they go up against Philly this weekend and my $$$ is on Phearsome Philly. I am not kidding. Ya see Philly...I do have some love for ya. Yeahhhh-Philly baby.
Not the All Stars
The Rat City All Stars aren't going to Philly, just DLF.
Well then I'm doubling my
Well then I'm doubling my bet for Philly!! Frankly, I'm surprised that they arent sending the All-Stars to Philly...they NEED to.
aww....
thanks biker dave. =)
I agree with The Coroner
No matter the intentions of this event, if you're going to present something to a community as "All stars", then indeed it needs to be the true definition of 'all stars/travel team' in accordance to WFTDA 20 person quarterly roster standards.
This type of false advertisement to your local derby community will back fire and skeptics will be created from those that were once devoted fans.
The folks (skaters, refs, coaches, stats..) who read this blog many times a day can forgive the flyers misprint that says "Rat City All Stars" because we are too concerned with our own perspectives of this scrimmage/bout affected us, rather than respecting non-derby civilian rights.
I'm just saying, if I was a Rat City fan, excited about seeing the all stars play against a local challenge, I would be pissed that I paid $25 to watch a training scrimmage.
In short, be honest to those that pay your bills.
Non-derby civilian rights?
I disagree. I do not think that fans have an ironclad right to see any specific roster at a bout. If they go in expecting that, they're going to be sorely disappointed whenever roster shake-ups happen due to a new crop of rookies entering through a tryout or alternates getting game time due to star player's injuries.
Many fans are not going to understand the vagaries of WFTDA sanctioning and official rosters. Those who do are going to more likely to know more about the leagues in question, and about derby in general, and so understand why rosters might get shaken up.
Non-derby civilians have rights too
I gotta disagree with your disagree, Frenzy, or at least throw an angle on it. I disagree if you want derby to keep evolving toward being a 'mainstream' sport. (Which is, of course, a proposition worth debating separately.)
I submit the following, relevant to both professional and amateur sport:
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/injuries
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/injuries
http://www.statfox.com/cfb/injuries.htm
These sites tell you exactly who's injured, in what way, and when they're expected to return to action. Who can you expect to see play when you show up? Every day, sports sections print baseball pitching matchups so you know which pitchers you can expect to see before you tune in or head to the ballpark.
Of course derby isn't advanced to this point yet (have ANY amateur non-collegiate women's sports evolved to the where third party sites track player injuries and roster status?) ...
... but I don't see that fan (i.e. consumer) interest in rosters should be pooh-poohed so out of hand, nor should long-term need for an increasingly fan-transparent sanctioning process be ignored.
Obviously Charm City isn't going to print up a big bout poster saying "Come see the Charm City All-Stars, skating this Saturday without Dolly, Joy, Flo, Frenzy, Holly, OR Mibs!" BUT if fans are going to be regularly 'disappointed' (as you say) by the roster shake-ups typical of a derby team, let's be honest and say that maybe that points to a fundamental problem (er, growth challenge) for the sport as a whole -- rather than blaming casual fans ('civilians') for being curious and eager for continuity.
How set-in-stone should rosters be?
... BUT if fans are going to be regularly 'disappointed' (as you say) by the roster shake-ups typical of a derby team, let's be honest and say that maybe that points to a fundamental problem (er, growth challenge) for the sport as a whole -- rather than blaming casual fans ('civilians') for being curious and eager for continuity.
Here's a point I'm very curious about. Do you think this is why WFTDA is asking for a quarterly roster for the travel teams? Is this roster set in stone or should WFTDA be regulating it or enforcing it in any way?
My personal opinion is that so long as rollerderby remains an amateur volunteer sport, you can't expect to have hard-line rosters. We skaters have lives outside of derby (hard to imagine sometimes) and sometimes girls can't afford to travel or jobs/family make it impossible to go. Also, another point brought up is the necessity to change out players based on advancements/tryouts into the A-team. A lot can happen in a few months to change up a roster. Injuries are a whole different category and yes, maybe injury lists should be posted somewhere for fans to see, but again, how much regulating do we want WFTDA or anyone to have over the leagues?
I think rosters need to remain fluid at all times, to give coaches the latitude to change up when necessary on the fly. The quarterly roster is a good idea for tracking purposes but shouldn't be set-in-stone.
~Envie~
Rosters
I'm certainly not a WFTDA rep, so I can't speak on why this rule was put into place (one reason was certainly because more leagues voted for it).
What you have to realize is that before this kind of thing existed, the only rule was that there would be up to 14 skaters per team. This left it up to the interleague reps and/or the contract. How long before the bout would rosters be shared? Would subs be allowed? If so, how many? If that wasn't in the paperwork, would they be willing to allow a last minute substitution?
When you think about all that grief, you can kind of get an idea where it came from. Also, consider the tournaments portions of the rules. Bring 20, put 14 on in any given bout.
What maybe doesn't get spelled out specifically is whether a league can use as many subs as they have girls left on the 20 skater travel roster. Or it is spelled out but only in rules that aren't published.
-Barely even speaking for myself...
*~[
Grand Poobah
Sin City Stat Pack
Fabulous Sin City Rollergirls
Yet, for every fan who
Yet, for every fan who follows who's injured on a given team on a given date, there are thousands more who turn on the game or show up to the stadium no matter what. Even the fans who are following injuries and other factors affecting who's getting gameplay at a given game aren't taking it as a personal affront if the star quarterback is injured. If they are, they're douchebags.
As others have pointed out, this goes double for a pay-to-play amateur sport.
So, while it's unethical (and a pretty bad idea) to send out a team of fresh meat when you've advertised the all-star team, it's not realistic for fans to expect that they're going to see the exact same players each time, and it's not violating their rights to sub in players.
One thing that amuses me about this whole discussion is that you, Roxy Rockett, and I are all on the East Coast. Everything we're going on about here is based on pure conjecture on our parts about how fans might hypothetically react to whatever line-up in a game that happened in Portland. None of us were there (I wasn't, anyway.)
For all I know, the fans burned cars because they didn't feel there was enough star power on the Rat City roster for this bout. I kind of feel like Elwood would have brought that up, though.
¡Palabra! Lohan
¡Palabra! (that's Spanish for "Word!")
or...
maybe he's irritated at the comments that the game didn't count for anything and it was a "B team" matchup. This isn't the first time that people started to make excuses because one team loses to another team. Rose city brought it, end of story.
Holly Gohardly
Charm City Roller Girls
no doubt rose brought it
It's obvious that rose brought their A game. I don't think anyone is arguing that.
But it is also clear, that rat did NOT bring their A game.
The girls that played for rat city are no doubt talented, but there are some key players missing from when BAD played them that were really awesome.
If you look at RAT CITY stats, a lot of their best jams are when the 3 sisters are playing.
Miss fortune is considered by many the Best jammer in all of roller derby.
Ann R. Kissed is definitely one of their best blockers.
Wile. Peyote was one of the highest scoring jammers against BAD.
None of these girls played as well as others who are usually on there 14 man roster.
If Rat comes to regionals with their A game. They will no doubt be ready for any and all competition.
You can never count rat city out. I mean come on- they're Rat City!
AHA!
None of these girls played as well as others who are usually on there 14 man roster.
So THAT is their secret?
-Barely even speaking for myself...
*~[
Grand Poobah
Sin City Stat Pack
Fabulous Sin City Rollergirls
phrased wrong
i didn't mean to say the girls did not play as well as the other girls on the 14 man roster.
I meant that the awesome skaters I mentioned didn't play as didn't other skaters on their regular 14 man roster.
I wasn't trying to diss anyone.
Maybe i should shut-up now!
I think it's a joke
I thought he was just joking that you said "14 man" instead of "14 women" or "12 player."
Like, "Man? So *that's* their secret!"
Yeah...
So which team got Quadzilla?
*~[;-p
-Barely even speaking for myself...
Grand Poobah
Sin City Stat Pack
Fabulous Sin City Rollergirls
You nailed it Holly. The "B-Team"/"B-Game" excuse is so weak
it once earned its own thread at Elwood's MySpace blog, though I can't seem to find that thread right now for the linkum.
Yet that weak excuse keeps getting repeated, intra-league, inter-league, worldwide. I can't think of a more feebish thing to whine out after a loss. Take your lumps or your favorite team's losses with a smattering of dignity and humility. Chin up. Live to fight another day. Acknowledge the superiority, if just for that one day, of those opponents who dusted you. Just quit making those feeble excuses.
If your team made a commitment to play, then the team that shows up is your team, injuries, absences, energy-level notwithstanding.
As Axle Adams (aka Jules Doyle) once said, "It doesn't matter who wasn't there."
BTW, I love Charm City Roller Girls and I love Baltimore. If I didn't live in Portland, I'd live in Baltimore or Sevilla. I hope to see you and your team skate again soon.
Best to all.
Yup. I still stand by that
Yup. I still stand by that statement. With the 12 skaters that did make the trip down, Rat City still shouldn't have gotten beat down so badly. Rose City played the best overall team game I've seen them play yet. That being said, Rat City played outright bad for the quality of skaters they had on the track.
Also, for those saying that the all-star team wasn't the all-star team, I'd have to say you're wrong. Of the 12 skaters that were on the track for Rat City, 10 of them are on the official 20 roster for regionals. I know there are a group of injuries in the mix that kept a number of skaters out. As for the two who aren't on the offical 20 for regionals, I doubt anyone that's seen Drew Blood or X-Khan skate would say that they aren't worthy of filling in for an all-star roster.
Axle Adams
a.k.a. Jules Doyle
Derby Photographer
Lets just say that
The Rat City all stars with a few exceptions did not play together like they were worthy of being all stars--even though they are capable.
Rat City has also been one of the least active of the top ranked all star teams engaged in interleague bouting and that may have been reflected in the lack of discipline, team work and focus shown in that bout. Hopefully, this will be a wakeup call for getting their act together for the regionals.
Hail to the Wheels of Justice for playing like an all star team that looks like its gonna cause some trouble in Houston.
20 person vs 14
So, 20 skaters are on your "all star" roster. Say the same-ish 14 of them get played the most and are the most well known of that team because of their time on the track. Then, sub in the 6 that rarely get to play in travel team bouts, and you have almost half of the 14 who are not as well known and do not have a reputation built because getting less time on the track. They may not be the usual 14, but being on that 20 person roster still makes them one of that league's all-stars.
yes
I do believe there were players not on the 20 man roster that played the game.
But really it doesn't matter. They said it wasn't sanctioned, so they could do what ever they want.
I think the bottom line here is both teams learned something and will go into regionals that much more prepared.
Can't wait.
DLF
Rat City's DLF is an awesome team! And if I remember correctly some of these teams have already taken down ranked teams, somebody help me here please. DLF vs Philly (if it is going to be the all-star team) will have a tough time with them.
yea...
philly is fielding 14 of their 20 person charter. we're looking forward to this undoubtedly being an awesome bout -- especially since our former sweetheart summer assault is now on the DLF. regardless of how it goes (to clarify, this clearly isn't a sanctioned bout as DLF is a home team), it'll be a great gear-up for regionals.
OOH I wish it was broadcasted LIVE!
For a derby fan (ok and I coach), I wish bouts like this could be televised already. Like that Texas-Kansas bout or a number of others that are discussed. Ugh I am so tired of the media mega moguls not jumping on board yet.
Boutcasts!
Unfortunately there's just not enough money in derby yet to make it attractive to the big boys, but it's mostly because they don't like risk. I bet if someone like ESPN decided to do it AND promote it well, they could make money. But the aversion to risk, coupled with the unforeseeable nature of bouting schedules, makes it unlikely that a serious network (sorry MavTV) will enter the ring any time soon. Just my $.02.
In the meantime, you've got DNN!! We love you, and derby, more than those fatcats ever will. We'll do live boutcasts whenever we can and our stable of boutcast-certified cub reporters is growing. It ain't at all like being there!™ We have discussed various methods of doing live web video but we're not quite there yet. But I believe it will happen.
You would think that
If the sport networks could televise "exciting" sports like Poker, cheerleading contests, and paintball (do they actually make $$?), how could they not find much more potential in the new wave of roller derby which packs football and hockey on quads.???
Maybe the WFTDA could offer passes for the regionals or the nationals (if they haven't attempted to do so) to execs at some of the sport networks so they could see the sport at it best. Or maybe a potential future regional or national bout at the UIC Pavillion that the Windy City League has struck a deal to lease. A well attended bout at such a location could encourage a network to take a chance on perceived potential profitability.
At least we're seeing some baby steps: Not only MavTV for last years regionals and nationals, but the Rat City league championship bout is being shot for Comcast on-demand TV. Don't know about the availability beyond Seattle.
No networks for the games..yet
If the sport networks could televise "exciting" sports like Poker, cheerleading contests, and paintball (do they actually make $$?), how could they not find much more potential in the new wave of roller derby which packs football and hockey on quads.???
Maybe the WFTDA could offer passes for the regionals or the nationals (if they haven't attempted to do so) to execs at some of the sport networks so they could see the sport at it best. Or maybe a potential future regional or national bout at the UIC Pavillion that the Windy City League has struck a deal to lease. A well attended bout at such a location could encourage a network to take a chance on perceived potential profitability.
At least we're seeing some baby steps: Not only MavTV for last years regionals and nationals, but the Rat City league championship bout is being shot for Comcast on-demand TV. Don't know about the availability beyond Seattle.
actually the sports networks make a ton of money off poker. Their costs are low and their advertisers spend solid money. The shows attract the most favored demographic of them all (men aged 18-49). The cheerleading also is profitable (very low costs combined with relatively high paying advertisers and the female teen demo base, further combined with networks counting that as part of their 'educational' programming).
The tough part wont be selling the sport at its best, it will be selling the sport at its most moderate. Soccer's problem in the US is in part because americans in the prime demos find the game boring, though soccer at its best can be pretty exciting. The 70-100 point blowouts are a tad too prevalant right now. This is not to say that it has not been mentioned. I cant speak for MavTV as I know no one involved there, but I know a few people at several other outlets who have stated that there is a "wait and see" attitude toward the rollergirl movement ( at best), which is not necessarily a bad thing at this point and time.
The other thing to remember for the sports networks is t